Talking Drupal #408 - The Drupal Association

• Tell us about yourself Tim
• Why Drupal
• What perspective do you bring
• Strategic plan
• Leadership
• Measurements
• Drupal the project vs Drupal the community
• Where will the DA be in 5 years
• Will Drupal be around in 20 years
• Favorite aspect of the strategic plan

 [MUSIC]



 This is Talking Drupal, a weekly chat about web design and development from a group of people with one thing in common, we love Drupal. This is episode 408 of the Drupal Association.



 Welcome to Talking Drupal. Today we're talking about the Drupal Association with Tim Doyle.


 Tim is the Chief Executive Officer at the Drupal Association. He has 25 years of experience in the nonprofit and government sectors. Most recently, he worked for a public sector startup that built an IT system serving 65 state governmental agencies in the US. Welcome to the show and thank you for joining us.



 Thank you and happy to be here.



 I'm Nic Laflin, founder at Enlightened Development, and today my co-hosts are our guest host for the next four weeks is Tim Plunkett, engineering manager at Acquia. Tim has been a Drupal developer for over 15 years. Major contributions include helping getting views into core, as well as the introduction of config entities, plugins, and object-oriented form system. Most recently, he was the Co-Initiative Lead and Primary Developer of Lail Builder, and he works remotely from Philadelphia as an engineering manager on Acquia's Drupal Acceleration team. Welcome back to the show and thank you for joining us. Great to be here. Thanks.



 Also joining us, as usual, JohnPicozzi Solution Architect at E-PAM.



 Hello, Internet folks.



 OK, and just a little housekeeping. We do have two Tims on the show, so I'm sure there will be a little confusion, but our patrons will know that we will probably be referring to Tim Doyle as T2, because I think the Drupal Association has already solved this issue with Tim Lennon and Tim Doyle.



 That's right. That's right. It was one of my very first decisions was, as I said earlier in the pregame, that there would be only one Tim at the Drupal Association.



 So one question that comes up is T2 like a Terminator 2 reference or something? Is that your fact? I think so. I just think it was a shorthand way of saying the second Tim without trying to make it sound a little cool. So I don't mind the Terminator reference. Could have also gone with the second coming of Tim.



 You know, that one said pretty high expectations, I think. I don't wantAnderson-Clutz topic, T2, before we dive into what's happening at the Drupal Association,



 let's introduce our audience to you. I think a lot of our audience probably first, quote unquote, met you at DrupalCon, the most recent DrupalCon.



 You've been the CEO of the DA for nine months now. Can you tell us a little bit more about your background?



 Sure. As I as you said in the beginning, I come to the DA.



 I think two things are salient. First, I come to the DA. I didn't start my career in I.T. I started my career in government and not for profit management.



 And so I work for a number of US federal government agencies. I work for a number of associations in the Washington, D.C. area. That's where I am. And but my most recent job, previous to being at the Drupal Association, was a public sector startup. And what that was was an association that created a a company effectively to develop an I.T. system that US state agencies could use. I was there about 16 years. We started with about when I when I was there, there were about 25 people at the association.



 I was the second person on this project and we grew to about 120, 150 people by the end.



 I started with building a system that initially served seven agencies. And then we grew that to 65 over the course of the 16 years.



 And I say that's where I got my I.T. chops, really, where I understood what it takes to build systems, what it takes to make users happy or try to what it takes to market, what it takes to deal with government agencies, etc.



 That's one. I think second is that was not an open source project. We were really was sort of a SaaS offering that we were we were making to state agencies.



 So I come to the D.A. without a deep background in open source.



 Of course, I know conceptually what open source was. We use open source products, etc.



 But a lot of my learning I've had to do over the last nine months has been to really try to understand



 the level below the talking points of open source. What is open source really mean to the community? What is unique about the Drupal community, etc., to understand how effectively to lead the D.A.?



 So I think that's kind of a little bit more, maybe more information than you wanted, but a little bit of my background and two things I'm bringing to the table that I think are are unique a little bit. No, that's perfect. And before we move on, I'm actually curious what what's kind of the biggest,



 maybe surprise is the wrong word, but biggest surprise going from somebody that previously used open source to becoming kind of a champion of open source. What's what's the biggest thing that you found out there? You're like, I didn't realize open source work like that.



 Yeah, I think the biggest surprise and one caveat I should say up front or maybe disclaimer is I might be prone to put my foot in the mouth in my mouth. So oftentimes not being well versed in open source. I might say something the wrong way. So I apologize up front if I offend people.



 But I think the biggest surprise to me or revelation that I did not during the interview process with the board. And they were very forthcoming. But I did not appreciate the distinction between the project and the association



 that we have a project that's running the product, if you will. And you have association that's to support it. And I'm still not 100 percent comfortable that I have my arms around exactly how those two work together now and how they should work together. You know, what's the ideal relationship between the two?



 Obviously, where I came from that what I would call that product function, that product management function was housed also with the organization that was funding it, supporting it.



 We're all in one shop. So that's probably my biggest revelation that I'm I'm still wrestling with a little bit in terms of how best to proceed.



 And I would just like to say our listeners probably already know this, but you have to not worry about putting your foot in your mouth when in a room with me because I typically put my foot in my mouth all the time. The trick is to get John to take it out of his mouth.



 And just keep my mouth closed. I don't know. It's not a skill that I've learned yet.



 So with your you know, you're kind of like nonprofit government background, I'm kind of curious, like, why come to Drupal, right? So you had a little bit of IT in there. You had a lot of government, a lot of a lot of open source. I'm wondering, like, what about like the job posting or the the you know, the application process was like, you know, to you, but like, hey, I want to go lead the Drupal Association. Like, I don't really know a ton about this, but I'm going to I'm going to bring what I got and see what happens. Yeah, no, great. Good question.



 And that's a question I've asked myself throughout the process a lot.



 I think if I go back a year, it's about a year ago where I first I had my first interview about around this time a year ago. And I had been at my previous position for about 16 years.



 This the system was mature. It was stable and I was ready. I was looking for what's my next what's my next gig? What's the next thing I want to do?



 And I think it was a someone afforded the Drupal Association position to me. And when I look at the the skill sets that the board was looking for, I checked off a lot of those. I said, I do that. I do that. I can do that. But I didn't know anything about Drupal itself. I was a member of the Drupal community. I I've never been a developer in Drupal, et cetera. So so I put my hat in the ring because I was excited about the challenge that the board was laying out.



 And the first few interviews were just to see if there was enough connection and between what they wanted and what I wanted. And there was. But as I got into talking specifically about their vision, I got really excited about it. And I will say that. So I was looking I was I was ready for my next adventure kind of to jump to jump into something. And I think it was a confluence of the board was also looking for some someone that maybe brought a little bit outside the community perspective into into the Drupal Association. So it was kind of like I was ready to jump into something that I was like I had the skill set for, I believe, but not the background in. And the board was also looking for someone that maybe would would come in with a little bit from the outside. I don't want words in their mouth, but, you know, a little bit from the outside. And it would just happen to work that we're both looking for the same thing.



 The other thing I did is I obviously during the process, I talked to as many of the community members as I could. And I will say that I I talked to ones I knew and then I got introduced to, you know, by other people. And the thing that I would note was the excitement that folks felt and the enthusiasm that folks felt about Drupal. And you don't this might sound obvious to you all, but you don't get that with proprietary products in the same way.



 And I thought, wow, because there was a community of my old system, a community of regulators and industry users. And we ran a conference and it was I really loved that part of it. And it was a good community because the regulators really worked together very well.



 But the Drupal community is like that 10 times, you know, the excitement level, the size. And that's what really attracted to me to Drupal was you have this great community that has great enthusiasm.



 You have this association that the board has a very clear vision of where they want to go. And the challenge will be, you know, how do you lead the association and leverage that enthusiasm and excitement in the community? So I think that's what really for me sealed the deal in terms of coming over, was that talking to two community members and the excitement enthusiasm folks had.



 You mentioned the outside perspective that you that you bring. Can you expand more upon that and just give us a sense of what is you think that that's new and exciting about your approach?



 Sure. I think the the outside perspective. So when I last system that I built and ran, you know, we operate that like a business. And so and I was used to being in associations where you there's a business side to running an association. In fact, I think to be successful, you really have to be quite serious about that business side of running the association.



 And I think that's one thing that I that I bring to the table that was maybe a little bit different is bringing a business model, trying to figure out what the Drupal associations business model is for sustainability.



 During the obviously during the pandemic, the association's budget took a hit. It's heavily reliant on the Drupal cons.



 The previous executive directors did very good. From what I can see, did a very good job of making sure that the association was was viable and was going to continue as an ongoing entity.



 We're out of the pandemic. I'm not announcing that officially. Other people have said that not me. So I'm not making an announcement about the pandemic here. But we're coming out of it. And and I think. But even, you know, even a year ago when I was interviewing, there was an interest in what will the association do for the next five years and the next 10 years? And where what is and I think the fundamental issue is what is that business model that will sustain the association, not just for the sake of self preservation, not just sustain it so it can be, but so it can so it can enhance Drupal and they can enhance and enhance the Drupal community. So I think that kind of really business mindset of developing a business model and pursuing it is one of the outside perspectives that I bring. Do you think prior to your involvement that the, you know, the Drupal association was kind of kind of lacking, you know, that that sort of business business type plan or a more robust business type plan?



 What I came into what I what I found when I arrived was and during the interview process, the board had a very clear vision of where they wanted to go. But but and they had talked about it and then I kind of put it on ice a little bit with the pandemic because we had to kind of go into just survival mode. And now they were ready to start working on it. And you'll see that in the strategic plan.



 But the DA itself had not begun to really absorb that, you know, that as an organization, what that strategic plan looks like and then to build a plan for that. And that takes that takes time.



 I think the other thing I was in, again, I'm coming to this from the outside. You know, the association was started originally, I understand.



 And in the Drees note in Pittsburgh had a really good



 presentation on this about the original, you know, was a place to kind of be a bank account for the Drupal project, you know, to hold money. And then it was, OK, we need to run these events, you know, and it builds up. And and now I think the future has to be off of, yes, we're doing those things, but it has to be more than that. So I want to characterize it as, you know, previously lacking. But I think there's a new vision that now requires a different organization to move it forward. I mean, I think we'd all agree, right? Like the DA kind of feels like it was originally started. And this is by no means in like a critique of the DA, right? But it's like it was very much started like by like software engineers, like open source software engineers, right, to support kind of what they were doing, right? And, you know, now it feels with with you coming in and the board kind of working on this plan, which we'll talk about that, like, where I don't know, for lack of better terms, putting on our big boy pants and like seeing that we need kind of like the business alignment to support the financial alignment to support the open source product. Right. Right. Right. No, I think that's that's a I think that's a fair way to characterize it.



 And it, you know, what I expect in a few years is for the DA to be different than it has been in the past. And I think the board wants that, too. So we've mentioned this strategic plan a couple of times now and teases a bit. And it sounds like you just kind of finalized what I assume would be kind of the first iteration of that. Can you can you talk about what the strategic plan is?



 Now, the DA, what does that look like? Sure. So the this is a plan that I've been working on with the board since January and we did approve it. We had an open board meeting at in Pittsburgh at Triple Con and it was approved. And now we're in the process of making it pretty. And we'll be posting on the Web site here in the next week or two. And I think that's a good question. Making it pretty. And we'll be posting on the Web site here in the next week or two and provide and then providing ongoing updates to the community about our progress for for implementing it. So the Drupal Association strategic plan is a three year plan. It lays out objectives that we want to achieve in three years. And those objectives revolve around three things. One is innovation of the Drupal, what I would call a Drupal product, innovation of Drupal. Two is marketing and specifically getting the Drupal brand out there to the general public and end users so that it is as common as other CMS and other software programs.



 And then lastly, it's fundraising. And I can talk a little more in detail that that really is, I would say, twofold.



 We are we're looking at the business model of how the association should run itself from a revenue perspective and be sustainable. But we also we just hired a director of philanthropy and we'll be venturing into seeking philanthropic support that can help fund a lot of the initiatives that the community is looking for.



 I can go to a lot more detail on each one.



 Let me just start with innovation and you guys interrupt me or cut me off or put me on mute if I go too long. Innovation, I think we just came off of a DrupalCon initiative called Pittsburgh. You might have heard of it where we raised some funds and then we went through a contest of sorts, if you will, which culminated in a panel of judges. Martin was on that on that panel myself that selected of about about twenty five submissions. We got it down to seven and then we had the audience vote that Pittsburgh and to fund the top ones.



 That was really kind of a way to kick off this focus on innovation. What we're looking what the innovation we're looking for is to really make Drupal the most innovative and impactful web platform in the world.



 We'll be focusing on makers, meaning part of our business model, if you will, will be really if you're a maker, how does a Drupal social really support you? And if you're not a maker, how do we get you to be a maker? And if you're not willing to be a maker, then let's not spend a lot of time on on that.



 And then second is to coordinate with like minded projects that support the open web. So I think the ways we can innovate is how do we coordinate with other other products, other open source software, modic others that are already being used in conjunction with Drupal. But how do we innovate one as a product, but then two in coordination with with other softwares? Yeah. And I think there's multiple ways that that type of coordination can happen. Right. One is utilizing a big initiative to play was moving to symphony, right. And utilizing and giving back to a product that other communities use as well.



 I think another example from the Pittsburgh was, I think, when the WordPress team found out about some of the Gutenberg initiatives, I think they stepped up and provided significant resources and have some development resources as well. And so that certainly helps. And then there's also things like the activity sub that we talked about today, like just giving feedback on or implementing different specs for different things helps bring awareness. So, yeah, there's a lot of ways that you can do that, as well as direct Drupal enhancements like layout builder views or, you know, you know, composure, that kind of stuff. Right. Right. You know, we looked at and I'll tell you on the innovation piece and we looked at how we want to innovate and the right now, there are contributions, strategic contributions to going to to Drupal every year. And we track the contributions. We categorize them or which are strategic and which are not strategic, if you will.



 And we continue to see growth of even strategic contributions. And so our goal is to the trajectory is to increase the slope of that growth, if you will. We want to see a threefold increase in what we call strategic contributions to Drupal by 2025. And you mentioned Gutenberg or those initiatives out of Pittsburgh.



 They'll have to be a process by which we say which are the strategic or the use of symphony, you know, the or the inclusion of symphony. Those were, in my opinion, strategic decisions that were made at some point. And so there'll be a process of deciding which are the strategic initiatives and then how do we funnel developers and companies that want to sponsor developers their activities? How do we channel those to the strategic initiatives that were that we want to undertake?



 And that's how we hope to achieve the threefold increase in strategic contributions by 2025.



 So can we talk a little bit? So like obviously, like Drupal is a code based. Drupal is a product. Drupal is an open source software that we all use and love. I'm wondering if you can talk a little bit, you know, kind of as we're talking about the strategic plan, talk a little bit about kind of like Drupal as the software and the DA and like some of or at least what the most important, you know, strategic advantage is that's maybe not code related. Like not hey, we need to add this feature. Hey, we need to innovate in this way. Like, is there some kind of like non code strategic advantage that the strategic that the plan kind of brings to the table? I'm assuming it does.



 Yeah, so if not, yes. So part of our under our innovation objective. So in addition to trying to find a threefold increase in in contributions are strategic.



 We want to double the number of certified partners.



 So we have a Drupal certified partner program.



 These are companies that contribute code. They, you know, they have to meet certain criteria. We want to enhance that to really double down on the makers.



 We want to take it's less it's less about the financial contributions of these companies make and it's more about the code or other contributions that they make. So it doesn't just have to be code. They can do other things as you know, they can do other things to contribute to the community and to the project.



 And so we'll we'll be rolling out an enhanced Drupal certified partner program that really in my opinion, de-emphasizes the financial contributions and emphasizes the code and community contributions. And then lastly, we want to see we want to see young folks coming in the Drupal and particularly in leadership positions. So we have a goal of in twenty twenty five twenty five percent of of those in leadership positions in the Drupal project in the Drupal community are new to their leadership positions.



 Part of that will be training and onboarding of both getting them into the community. So there's a lot of work that we know we have under each objective under the innovation objective. We started brainstorming what are some strategies or initiatives that we can undertake and there'll be a focus will be how do we train? How do we how do we onboard bring people into the community and specially focus on young folks? I mean, people in my mind under twenty five under twenty two. How do we get young people? One of my board members said it very well. I said, if we can, you know, this person got into Drupal because they had a problem to solve. They taught they taught themselves Drupal because it helped them solve the problem. How do we get that motivation going where I see I have a son in college who's through no fault of mind studying I.T. And I'm like, you know, Ethan, how do we get how do we get you excited about Drupal? What would it take? And it's this interesting idea of start with a problem solve and have them solve problems. And then they'll they'll teach themselves whatever tool they need to get there. Like, yes. So there's going to be a focus on on training and bringing people in that I think I think John speaks to your question about, you know, beyond code contributions. What are the other innovations or projects that we're doing?



 So if I had to kind of distill that distill that down right into like two, two points or three points, like it comes to me like one is greater involvement from folks that are currently outside the community, focusing more on, you know, the younger, the younger set of folks. Right. And then, too, I think it sounds like, you know, and this is true of any nonprofit, but like funding and raising funds to support. Support these these things. Is that pretty accurate? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, that's our third objective, which is the fundraising one. And I said that's it's both looking at our our our business model as an association. And I come from a pretty traditional association world. And the Drupal Association is not is not a traditional association in that way. So I will probably bring in some some some things that would be very traditional. Other things won't apply. But so look at that business model. And in that, as I said, we just hired Julia Kranzler, who's our new director of philanthropy. Just started last week, actually a week ago. And our goal is to triple our budget in three years. So we want to take the Drupal Association budget. We're about three and a half to four million. Now we want to go to 10-11. That will allow, you know, that is money that will allow us to do a lot more in the community and in supporting developers and supporting the community initiatives that folks are asking us to support.



 I want to jump in. You mentioned, you know, getting people younger, people continuing their contributions to Drupal and momentum within the Drupal community. I just want to share an anecdote from Pittsburgh. You know, I have a couple teammates at Acquia who are under 25 and one of them is at DrupalCon and it was their first DrupalCon.



 And they did remark after the fact they were pleasantly surprised at the, you know, the age demographics they saw. They were expecting it to be much skewed, much older than what they saw. And they were very pleased about it. So not saying we don't have more work to do. But I also, you know, I was pleasantly surprised coming out of the pandemic, having missed several DrupalCons. I mean, I started going to DrupalCons when I was under 25 and so sufficiently not now. But yeah, I wanted to share that aspect. One thing you did say, you mentioned, you know, getting a commitment to getting people into leadership roles. I'm curious how you're defining those since a lot of the Drupal community has sort of, you know, not poorly defined, but undefined. What it means to be a leader.



 Right. So that's part of the process we're going through now. And part of my learning and what I've had to learn in Drupal is like, why isn't it clear, you know, what's the leadership position? So we're identifying, you know, I've asked Tim Lennon and others to say, OK, if you listed out the community leadership roles, you know, what are they? You know, and to try to define that. So we we have a working list, which I don't have top of mind here. But working list of we came up with like 38 or 40 roles that we say are leadership roles in the, you know, in in the project and the association. And but that will vet that with folks to say, you know, did we get this right and then actively seek to I've heard two things. One is I started saying one thing that attracted me to Drupal was the enthusiasm, excitement. And that's true. On the other side of that, I've heard of some burnout people, you know, people are some people are feel burned out from kind of having to carry the water a lot. So I think getting I'm not sure that how extensive that is or not, but getting seeing about 25 percent turnover in those four, let's say those 40 3840 positions, not just turnover for turnover sake, but as people kind of, you know, want to retire a little bit or take a break from from all this work. Are we actively not going back to the same people, but actually getting people that had never been bringing a new perspective in into those roles. And so we, you know, we will have to publish our list of what we think are the are the community leaders and then ask folks to kind of weigh in on that.



 We probably won't get super technical on this because it's it's more of a thematic goal. Like, yes, we have a number to it. One 25 percent. That would be 10 or 12.



 But the theme is do we have people in leadership positions that haven't been there before that are bringing in new ideas? You know, I think that's great. Thank you. Yeah, this all sounds like super, super duper interesting to me. One thing that going back to your previous point about like getting younger folks, college, college age folks,



 which I guess can be a wide variety of ages these days, but getting folks from from, you know, colleges excited about Drupal, like as somebody who was an adjunct educator for a while, like and tried to get Drupal into a classroom, like I can understand the challenges there, but it kind of kind of excites me to try to like figure out how we do that and like who's had success with it. Because I do feel like that's a that's an avenue for everybody to rise. Right. Like the Drupal Association gets younger folks interrupted. Drupal companies get more specialized folks coming out of college that they can hire. Right. And I think like that's that's the biggest one of the bigger issues I see from like a company and agency standpoint is like when you have a new hire like right out of college. Right. They don't have a lot of Drupal specific knowledge. Right. And it takes a lot to either you either have to invest in that person and ramp them up or you have to you know, you have to just understand like, hey, we're going to bring this person on and like we're going to we're going to educate them through their time here as to what we need them to know. But like, you know, I think it's an interesting way of getting, you know, building the community is to to get them more at a college level.



 And then like the leadership roles, you know, are, you know, paths into the leadership roles are interesting to me. You talked about burnout. And I think, you know, I think everybody on this call has probably seen it one one time or another. Right. A module maintainer. Tim, for those audio listeners, Tim is laughing because he's he's got his hands into a lot of things. At some point, I'm sure he's probably been burnt out.



 But, you know, I think like how do we how do we develop processes to hand those things over or to bring new people on that are excited about initiatives and leading these things to alleviate that? I think those are, you know, two really important important aspects here.



 Yeah. And I would like a couple of thoughts on that in that. And hopefully as we go through the laying out our strategic plan, our initiatives, more meat on the bones. But, you know, there's a traditional route, which is, you know, as you said, let's get a university course into a pool and try to get kids college kids in there and move it. I'm not sure that's going to work in the same way in the US that that we want it to. So I think getting universities involved is important. How do we do that? I'm not sure.



 I go back to what I said earlier about.



 I think young people will self will teach themselves a lot of things. You know, if there's a problem to solve or a challenge or something to overcome and, you know, laying out a huge program that then we try to funnel people through might be harder than to giving folks a problem. Having Drupal as a solution and having them activate on that exactly how we do that. I'm not sure. The other thing I'd point. Another interesting idea in the Pittsburgh and we buy we've posted all the Pittsburgh entries to not just the ones that were that received funding, but we posted all the videos. The debug Academy had a very interesting concept where they would get folks put them through a training program and then with graduate them with experience, if you will. And so they weren't just putting through a training program and putting them out on their own.



 So I think there's interesting what I would call quote unquote non traditional ideas out there that, you know, the Drupal Association would like to be able to be a part of or spur to get to get young people in in the Drupal and kind of up.



 Continue to climb the Drupal expertise ladder, if you will. So so we're talking about non traditional. I'm curious what your thoughts are in a Drupal cinematic universe.



 Maybe we start with a Drupal comic and then move into a TV show and then a multi multi year movie. Yeah, boy, you're stretching my knowledge of what the, you know, if we could if we could replicate Marvel, I think, you know, if we could make the Marvel Drupal can become like Marvel, I think we'd have a good 20 year run. You know, the Drupal Con needs to become the next superhero.



 That's right. That's all obviously, but that's a drop. But I'm curious about some of the other the other aspects. So, you know, I think you've got a pretty good handle on this. But one of the things that, you know, developers really say is if you don't measure something, it hasn't happened. Right. So if you you can set all these initiatives, you can have all these great ideas. If you don't measure it, you know, you can't you can't know whether you've achieved it or not. And it sounds like the strategic initiative really has those goals in mind that are measurable. Like you mentioned, the budget, you're looking to triple that. Yeah, looking to increase leadership roles, things like that. But what what's your plan for, I guess, tracking that and exposing that information? Is that something you know, are we going to have to wait to Drupal Con to find that information out or are we going to have to wait for the annual report or or is that information going to be kind of in the open and some of that people can can contribute to?



 Oh, yes, that will be in the open. It will be by that is part of what we're trying to nail down before we publish.



 I've been nailed down the exact cadence of updates. But what I envisioned is regular updates, not waiting for Drupal Con somewhere on D.org. You can see the strategic plan for every. So we have we have the three objectives, innovation, marketing and fundraising for each of those. We have two to three measures which are numeric. One of the things I'm pretty a stickler for is and I do agree. You know, it's hard to if you can't, you know, it's hard to be to know you're being successful. You can't measure, right?



 Yeah. And so it's so there'll be numbers. So tripling strategic contributions, 25 percent new leaders in Drupal and and doubling the number of certified partners for the fundraising campaign. I mentioned the tripling of our budget. So there's dollars there you can track. There's numbers for the marketing objective.



 We're looking at built with or other tools that allow us to say how many sites are on Drupal. So but we're and it's not just the raw number of sites, right? Dries talks about Drupal being for ambitious site builders. So there's you know, if you look at the top million sites, Drupal makes up, I think, two and a half percent of the top million sites in terms of volume traffic.



 If you look at the top 10,000, we make up eight percent.



 So so you can see that as the sites get more robust, Drupal becomes a larger share. So we will have actual numbers that we can look at to say, how are we doing against against these objectives? And my goal is probably on a quarterly basis. I don't want to commit to that right now, but on a quarterly basis, monthly probably is too much too too often to be updating. But quarterly so we can measure progress and and see. And I would like to make that definitely one thing that is so my previous job, I was with bank regulators and bank regulators are two things conservative and bank regulations kind of behind closed doors often.



 One of the big changes coming to open source, everything's out in the open and the community has a strong preference for everything being out in the open, you know. And so I've drunk that Kool-Aid definitely in my and the staff at the VA, make sure that I keep drinking it. So yeah, it'll be on D dot org and we'll try to be as transparent as possible on just getting numbers out to go to the bad.



 Yeah, I mean, one of the advantages of that approach to is if somebody cares about or is passionate about a particular objective that you're going for and sees that is lagging behind a little bit that can motivate them to take part or even if it's not lagging behind and they're just passionate about it, seeing like if you don't know what's going on, it's hard to participate.



 And the truth is, as welcoming as the community is and as helpful as the community is contributing to core, contributing to these types of initiatives is daunting. Right. It is. It is a little intimidating. But if you if you get exposed to that type of information and get introduced to those pathways more often, then people are more likely to make that leap. Right. I think if people just hear about these initiatives once a year, they feel like, oh, they don't need my help. But if you hear about it more often, more organically, then then people will start to feel like they can participate, too, which is obviously one of the goals.



 Right. Right. And I think I think that's I've even experienced that dynamic today. And Tim Lennon reminds me that the community is so large that when someone in the community or when there's initiative out there that catches fire, there could be hundreds or thousands of people interested, throwing in ideas, supporting it, which is very different than a closed system or a proprietary product where you're only dealing with the small circle of folks that that work on that.



 And so that that's the you know, the the plus the upside of being open. The downside, of course, you have a thousand opinions. You have to sit through. But the upside is you can activate a lot more people quickly if if your ideas take hold.



 Yeah. And specifically, one of the things I was thinking about it related to the Pittsburgh stuff, which is one of the strategic initiatives. One is Pittsburgh was great. I really enjoyed watching it. I enjoyed the selection process. I think people generally selected the ones that I would have selected. I wasn't at Triple Con, so I didn't get a chance to vote. But, you know, I have thoughts and opinions about it. And obviously, you know, I know kind of where I stand in the community. So I can't you know, there's no way to say like this is the way I should go. But I have thoughts and opinions about how Gutenberg should be implemented. I've used Gutenberg and WordPress. I have fairly strong opinions about how it's implemented in certain ways. And, you know, one of the things one of my questions coming out of Triple Con was how and where do I provide my thoughts, whether people read them and take those, you know, that that's up to the community to decide. But where do I put that? Is there an issue queue for that? And obviously, a lot of these have individual project issues. So I can go there. But, you know, since it's something that's run by the DA, having like a feedback loop for that kind of stuff, when something is funded, I think would be would be interesting to. Yeah. So we recently hired Alex Moreno came on and the staff back in April.



 And he's going to be leading a lot of our innovation efforts. And he's the one leading Pittsburgh. And but to your point, we were just having a conversation a month ago and say, hey, how do we want to track these things? And I had a very specific idea in my head about how we track these projects and so forth. And he said, no, we're just going to do on V dot org and we're going to put everything out there and do dot org. And again, my history, you know, I got a little reactionary. So, whoa, that's going to be too public. And then he said, no, no, this is a good way. This is the way people can give feedback in the communities used to it. So again, I'm a lot to learn and I'm learning it.



 So I think you will see that Alex rightly has anticipated your comments. And, you know, we will be of the seven, six projects that we're funding. They will be managed on the dot org like any other project. And you will have the ability to have insight into it. You know, our interest is to make sure that the projects move and get done because, you know, we're the funnel of these dollars.



 But then, you know, the the ability to have the community be aware of progress and weigh in on it, I think, is valuable.



 And the last thing I'll say on the Pittsburgh idea, that was a way of making a splash and getting focused on innovation, whether that's a long term model for how do we channel organizations with dollars that are willing to invest to people with ideas? You know, that may not be the long term model at all. There may be something different, but that's what we're trying to achieve. We had folks that had resources and wanted to spur innovation and we had folks that ideas and and needed funding or whatever to help make those ideas real. And that's the role that we want to play increasingly going forward to be this kind of channel or resources to individuals or to companies, you know, however it goes. So I don't want I know there's a I thought it was a great splash to get attention. I don't want folks to realize that's probably not the long term model. You know, we're not going to have a probably won't have a picture at every single Drupal con. And that's the only way we fund innovation. But there will be some variation on that theme where where people get to vote and select where the DA acts as a channel or resources.



 That's wonderful. Yeah.



 Earlier, you alluded to the kind of unique relationship that the DA has with the software project itself and the community.



 And sort of how you're less currently hands off in terms of like directing code and development and whatnot. But when you think of the project itself versus the community, you know, how do you how do you differentiate between those two and how do you approach them?



 So that's that's probably the area I still have a lot to learn on a lot to learn about.



 But, you know, my my thinking is that going forward for the Drupal Association to truly support the project and the community effectively, the Drupal Association needs to be, you know, as close to the project leads and leaders, you know, the core contributors, the trees, the trees is on my board. So we're very close in that way.



 But there needs to be more just the association working hand in glove with the core committers and others on the project. Exactly what that looks like. I'm not sure.



 But it's it's one of the issues we had with Pittsburgh was we had some of the folks that we were were selected to be funded. And their question is, well, if we do this, how do we know it gets committed in the core, if it's appropriate to be committed in the core? And I said, that's a great that's a question that we not the DA, but we mean the DA, the project, the community have to answer because that's that's a fundamental question. We fund it. We'll get in.



 So I think the future will be the association a lot more working hand in glove with the project and being more involved in the project, at least from a table, listening, understanding what's going on. Well, the other follow up to that is sort of the differentiation between contrib and core. Right. So with initiatives like Project Browser, which are still underway, you know, part of the goal of that is to kind of elevate contrib and give it some more access and visibility.



 Because right now it's, you know, 50,000 modules. And it's like, good luck finding the right one. And if you have a new idea, good luck getting that one found by people from both directions. But with regard to core and and in what you just said with Pittsburgh, you know, not all those things have to be core. A lot of people want things to be in core.



 But, you know, the core committers also need to be involved in that discussion as well. Not just because it gets funded doesn't mean it's going in.



 So I guess my question is, what any thoughts on sort of the prominence of contrib or just not making sure I'm a core developer, I'm fairly biased myself. But how do we prevent or from kind of taking over?



 That's a that's a great question. I mean, that's a great question. And I want to be clear, like my comments when folks ask me, it didn't have to go in the court. That should not be. I mean, certainly not my decision and not the DA's decision on like, oh, yeah, this has to go in the court. That's kind of the strategic decision. Someone has to decide that if it's appropriate, if it's necessary.



 And I fully support your point on elevating contributions.



 I think that's the and that's an area that I would Tim to Lennon on our staff, our CTO and his team should be involved in how the D.A. responds to that or gets involved in that. I don't you definitely reach my limit of understanding the technical nuances and in terms of what's the best approach on on elevating contrib and core and so forth.



 So I'll kind of back off of answering that question, just fall back to saying, hey, I still think that there needs to be greater involvement and kind of hand in glove working between the D.A. and and the project.



 Yeah, I think I think one thing that I really learned based on the discussions we've had with a couple of core maintainers of the last year is a lot of that.



 A lot of stuff in Drupal is community led, but I think the core question really lies with the core maintainers, right? It's because if something is not going to be in core, that's the core maintainers decision, but the community can still support it. Just that just goes in contrib, right?



 Because there's only so many core maintainers and they can only support what they can support. As a community, we can't.



 We can't force that responsibility on on core maintainers that are already on some level overloaded, right? If if something is important for the community, important for the project, but can't be supported by the core team, well, that just needs to be supported in in contrib. And there's a lot of stuff that does that already, right? Commerce is something that, you know, even if, you know, Sintara wanted to become core maintainers and support that in core, I don't I don't know that that should be in in core that it shouldn't be. Right. As a lover of commerce, you're not going to get any complaints from me. Like I personally am a big fan of a smaller core.



 And I think like, you know, we have to be smart about it. We like the royal we hear it. We have to be smart about how we how we grow core. And I think that's kind of what what I'm hearing here. But yeah, I agree. I agree with you there. And the recent announcement of the newest product manager of Drupal core, Larry Escala, is kind of a big change, I think, and direction and focus for core. I think he's going to be thinking very strategic. I know he is thinking very strategically about, you know, what it means, what core means and what means to our users and what it should how it should exist and what should body in terms of product division. So I foresee a lot more clarity on that for coming. So I think like what I'm what I'm hearing here and the teams can can confirm or deny this. Right. Is that like the DA kind of understands, right? Where it kind of comes down as far as like it's not trying to make code decisions like that's not that's outside of its purview, right? It's there to support and enable the ability for the right people to make those those decisions. Right. Yeah, that's exactly that's exactly what I'm thinking in terms of, you know, we want to be a channel or of resources to to contribute. And so we want, you know, we need to be aware, understand, we need to know what the strategic lorries or strategic visions is, but but not to be the decision maker in that regard at all. And an enabler, if you will, of the of the technical strategic path. Right. Yeah. Yeah. So God. Now, it's going to take the one, you know, the one objective that we talked a little bit about, but right tied into this is the marketing. So we want to market. We want to have an independent marketing. Drupal is marketed right now through a lot of companies that use Drupal and provide services.



 The board very clearly wants the Drupal Association to get into marketing. Just Drupal itself as a product, if you will.



 You know, in the same way that other private label companies do.



 Yeah, I see it's tied together because those are the.



 You know, it's through marketing that you can understand what end users are looking for. So as we are out marketing and we get information, hey, you know, they like having, you know, four different layout builder options or they don't. I'm beyond my expertise here, but, you know, or they're really looking for something simpler or something. You know, do we have a place to transmit that information back to so that the folks that should be making those decisions can can kind of weigh that that marketing. You know, the the information we're receiving from marketing.



 Yeah, so I think this kind of dovetails into my next my next question, because, you know, that makes complete sense to me. Like, I think Drupal, the Drupal project needs to have that that partner, right, to be able to market it, to be able to fundraise for it, to be able to provide that vision of a of a product that people can use and, you know, and support. Right. And I think for some people, like, that feels a little bit like Icky, like, oh, marketing, no, it needs to be open source. But like, I think it's it's a when this is my my thinking here, not anybody else's. But like, you know, I think it it it needs that that spin or it needs that positioning in order for it to succeed into the future. Right. So my question here is actually a two parter and like putting on our our ability to see into the future goggles. Right. T2, I wonder like where you see kind of the D.A. in in like five years. Right. Yeah. So I think the D.A. in five years will be I mean, let me let me list the match which I think I think it'll be larger in terms of high staff, but really capacity to execute.



 There'll be it'll be closer to the project.



 And I think and meaning just more involved with with the project, if you will, on a kind of a day to day basis than it is today.



 I think it will be.



 Are we have a diversity of funding that we rely heavily right now on DrupalCon for funding a lot of the initiatives for funding the association activities and initiatives.



 Clearly, that's not sustainable long term. We don't know what the future of in-person conferences are. Personally, I think they will come back and they will be an important part of communities innovating. But from a cash flow perspective, we don't know what the future holds.



 I think we'll we will.



 But I hope we are self-sustaining in our funding and not relying on just one or two major funding sources. So the philanthropic efforts, I think, will be a lot more aggressive in getting funding from sources that are have shared values with the association, the community and our funding some initiatives.



 You know, the perennial problem with open source are not problem, but the perennial issue is how do you know you can't sell the license. How do you raise money for maintenance and ongoing and solving that will be is a priority.



 I think so closer to the project, larger and I think I hope more global. And one of the things I've talked to the CEOs of our partners, not all of them about halfway through the list. And I've heard from a few of them that we're a U.S. based not for profit. Obviously, the U.S. is a large market. But maybe we're too U.S. focused. And so I hope that in five years it is perceived as being much more of a global organization representing, you know, Drupalists around the world and not just, you know, and not that we're. I know that may be in some quarters an unfair criticism of the Drupal Association, but I hope in five years that it's really seen as global. It's really seen as, you know, serving the needs of folks in India and Vietnam and Australia. You know, equally.



 And then I think lastly is is I alluded to this is the really sustainable funding model that, you know, we're not right now, our budget pretty lean. We do a lot with the little that we have, but we need to just be much more sustainable and not every year kind of figuring out what we can do, what we can do.



 So that's kind of where I see in five years the Drupal Association being.



 So I think that sounds that sounds all very positive and like very, you know, good. I mean, lack of a better word, right. It sounds it sounds great. It sounds like a great place for the DA to be to be in. So I'll now shift to the second part of my question, which is kind of like the doomsday, the doomsday question. So everybody brace yourselves. And I perish to think, but like let's fast forward 10 years or 20 years into the future.



 Do we think that, you know, Drupal is still around and they're buying that that the DA is still around in, you know, 10 or 20 years?



 So this is a dangerous question to ask the CEO of the association to answer less than a year into their term with board members possibly listening.



 So I think everyone on the phone, everyone on the call today should have to answer this question, not just me. But joking aside, that's I think that is the that is the question. I feel like the the easy answer is that yes, it will be, you know, obviously, but technology is changing. Will will CMS's be CMS's in 20 years?



 Will it morph to something else?



 Clearly, the way I look at it, Drupal is 20 years old now. I think there is a bit of an inflection point with the community, not just the association, but the community and the software for what's going to make it viable for the next 20 years. And, you know, where is the demand from end users? What are they seeking and what will they need?



 So, you know, if I was going to predict 20 years is a lot. I mean, it's amazing. Drupal is here now, you know, the 20 years is a long time. And so in some ways, I think it will probably look very different. And it may be the Drupal Association. It may be something that is much more of a conglomerate. The association may be a conglomeration of a lot of open source. You know, maybe beyond just a CMS, maybe maybe there's a DXP kind of thing.



 You know, that the market, I think the market drives where, you know, where they're going.



 So I would say I had to predict.



 The risk of my job, I would say yes, but it would be very different. It may not be called Drupal, maybe called something else. I think the other side of the coin, too, is there's still Drupal six sites out there. There's going to be Drupal sites in 20 years and some of them will probably still be Drupal six. But, yeah, you know, the question is about the community, how thriving is it going to be? And how and I think that's part of the strategic initiatives, right? If the community is fed, if the community in the project is fed and they're tended to. And as you mentioned, inflection points, you know, the changes in direction that are needed are made. Yes, it'll be around. It might be different, but it'll be around if if we as a community, as a whole, decide to bury our heads in the sand and be like, well, the way we've done things has been successful. Until now, we're just going to keep doing it that way. Well, for a long term, you know, 10, 20 year longevity type things, that's very dangerous. Right. Experimenting, doing different things on an individual project. Of course, they can fail or they can be the wrong decision. But if you don't innovate, you don't make the attempt things, then long term, the long term health of the project will will fail. I was just going to say it. And that's one of the things that's really encouraging, even though it's been such a short, short time seeing the push for innovation as kind of like I mean, because the Drupal community is always innovated.



 But, you know, seeing the push and the actual like discussion and measurement of it is encouraging for the long term.



 So, yeah, I was just going to say, like, Tim, I know that that was a difficult question to answer. And I appreciate your answer.



 You know, I think like from from my standpoint, like I agree, I agree 100 percent with with what you said. I think based on what you what your, you know, your five year outlook is right. And the fact that we actually just saw big changes in Drupal, right. So the the, you know, move from Drupal seven to eight, eight to nine, nine to 10. Right.



 And so what I think is is pushing people into a, in my opinion, again, my opinion, a new type of Drupal, right, where Drupal isn't necessarily like a content management system in the traditional sense. Right. It's becoming a unifying tool for four systems. Right. And when I describe Drupal to clients, like in a lot of these kind of like big corporate headless architectures, I'm describing it as kind of the glue that brings all of the systems together.



 And I think, you know, we've seen Drupal shift in the last couple of years from from that kind of like standard C.I.D. I don't want to say service manager, but like more of the glue that brings these systems together. And I think, you know, we've seen Drupal shift in the last couple of years from that kind of like standard CMS to something greater. And I think with the DA support and the DA growth that you're anticipating over the next five years, we'll be able to see the same sort of growth and pivot and innovation in Drupal. Yes, I think maybe I might be a little idealistic because, you know, I have a lot invested in Drupal success. But, you know, I think I think the I think the community is scrappy and capable of shifting as the industry shifts to keep Drupal relevant.



 Tim Plunkett, I will I will let you offer up a response on this if you if you so choose or we can just move on to our next question. Totally. No, I would. I mean, Nick hit my point, which is that Drupal will long outlast the Drupal community, like the software is going to be running whether we like it or not for a very long time. I mean, you know, there was the whole thing recently where they just had to rehire a bunch of assembly programmers because like banking systems needed overhauls like Drupal six is going to be there forever. So whether or not, you know, people want to work on Drupal is a different question. And I appreciate all of your responses on that. So Windows XP can do it. Drupal can do it. Why not? I mean, that's that's seven is definitely the Windows XP of the world. Azure world. Oh, boy. Since send all nasty grams to Tim. I was I was there on our seat and when Drupal seven came out 12 years ago, 12 and a half years ago, and I can't believe it's been that long. So what can I say?



 T2, I want to ask you one thing. We talked about the strategic plan a lot. Yeah, but I want to know if you could have one. What is your favorite part of the plan? Oh, wow. That also could be have an equally dangerous question or to answer because, you know, every part of the plan has stakeholders. You know, folks are particularly interested in it.



 The but I would say not the fundraising part that's necessary, but that's not that's not that's not always the funnest. Although the philanthropic part will be new and exciting. And that's great. I'm excited about that part. Kind of part of most excited about is is the marketing piece.



 And it is because I think what what we're envisioning is as you know, we're going to focus on having Drupal present at non Drupal events. So when you walk in an exhibit hall at a tech conference, do you see a standalone Drupal exhibit, you know, where it's just marking Drupal? It's not about the provider, you know, and maybe the providers are there, too. Yes. But it's like saying, here's what Drupal can do for you.



 I'm I'm excited about that for two reasons. One is it feels new for the association to be taken on that role. So there's some uncharted territory here. How do we do that? Again, it's in our mission, our public mission with when we were founded to promote Drupal. And it says that that's what we in our in our in our filings with the IRS, the charitable purpose of the Drupal Association is to promote Drupal as a public as a public good.



 And by definition, public goods often don't have an organization behind it because they're not they're not a profit there. So but I'm excited about that part of it, the newness part and having a Drupal Association stepping into that.



 And I'm also excited for from because that's where we get the feedback from folks about what, you know, why why aren't people choosing? You know, if Drupal loses out an RFP to a to a government agency or something to something else, why is that and what was missing? You know, if it's that simple to find out. And oftentimes in the marketing of it, you find out where you need to go. So I'm excited for that part of the of the of the marketing initiative to kind of figure out why it's why it's not winning in certain areas. That's one of the revelations for me on this call. And this is something we kind of have hinted at on the show for the last probably year year and a half. But, you know, the Drupal community is great. The Drupal project is great. Open source is fantastic. One of the strengths of the community and the open source project in general is it's distributed. It means more people can contribute. It means there's more eyes on it. Things are more secure. Things work better. But the truth is all projects have certain pieces that need to be coordinated. Right. And Drupal as a community does a fair amount of that already, especially with core. Right. We have core product manager. We have and different teams work on some stuff. But there there are a lot of.



 There are a lot of processes and things that just need a coordinated team to handle that sometimes is really difficult to manage from the ground up. So for the Drupal community does a really good job of having community events around the world, like Drupal camps or even meetups.



 But the bigger events like DrupalCon would really be hard to do as just a community led initiative. It started as that. But once it got too big, that's hard.



 Marketing, individual companies do tons of marketing and they sell Drupal as well as themselves, obviously, but they sell Drupal. But having a coordinated like getting 20 or 30 different companies together to just be like, hey, we're going to send people to all these different tech conferences just to tell people about Drupal, like that would take so much more organization than just having the Drupal Association do it. Yes. Another philanthropic thing, like this is something that I've thought, you know, I thought about a lot like it's one thing to go to my clients and be like, hey, you should donate to the Drupal Association, right?



 But to have like a coordinated group to go like, yeah, I have clients that get money from like, you know, the Balmer Foundation or the Gates Foundation like that. That's much easier to be handled. Like if a company, a specific company is going to go to them like that foundation is not going to donate to a specific company just to help Drupal. But if the Drupal Association approaches them and says, hey, we represent this public good, it'll we'll make sure it's distributed evenly to the community. However, which way, you know, whether it's innovation funds or whatever, like that just you just have that ability.



 The community is really, especially for the last two years, has really been pushing non-code contributions. And that started to bleed into other like the project browsers doing the design initiative. Right. So but but those are traditionally things like if it's not an art specific project, getting designers to contribute like logos or modules has again, I've been something that's traditionally difficult.



 I don't know. I don't know why it just has. And I think Project Browser is the first initiative that has really achieved any measure of success there. Right. Getting getting little logos for each individual top 100 module. I think it is. That's what the goal is.



 But but yeah, having just a central I think that's when, you know, the Drupal Association has many, many hats and many things to take care of. But I think one of the things I'm seeing that you say is you're starting to step up to provide a lot of that infrastructure for the more focused stuff, even if the execution still happens in the community, just providing that infrastructure side is it's key. Like you can't have a project this large without some of that.



 And obviously that requires funding, which is why that's part of the strategic initiative. Yes, that's and that's exactly right. That facilitation role. You know, I mean, that's one of the things we facilitate Drupal being available to anyone who wants to download it and use it. But we and we do some facilitation of the community and their strategic initiatives. But we need to do that's where we need to do more of that facilitation role in order for Drupal. I mean, bluntly, in my opinion, in order for Drupal to be competitive long term, all the great ideas and the execution and decision making that is done at the community level should stay there. It just needs to happen in a coordinated way. And if we can step in and help facilitate that to get a little bit speed to market or what have you, that's the role. So not right and then communicate it out about what's happening. So that's it. That's exactly where I think we're going.



 Well, last question before we close. Is there anything that we missed that you really would like to tell our listeners?



 You know, I think that's a good question. There's a lot that I still have to say probably. But let me turn around and say really, I'm still learning at the you know, John asked me to be on here back in January and I said, well, too soon. I guess, you know, give me time to really understand what's going on. I still feel like I know a lot more, but I don't know as much as I want to. So I think one thing is, you know, I'm committed to be at the Drupal Association long term.



 I have an exciting path forward, but I have a lot to learn. So one one thing I would ask is to understand that I saw a lot to learn at the Drupal about the Drupal community and the project. So to bear with me as I learned one and then two as the association shifts and morphs to to know that we're doing it to try to serve a serve the community in a new way. And so there may be some missteps along the way. I would ask for grace on that. But also, and I'm not worried about this, people speaking up and being involved where maybe we're you know, those missteps are you know, need to be pointed out so that we don't make them again. So just know that we can instill a sense of you know, we'll be changing at the Drupal Association and have a little bit of patience with us as we kind of morph to do what what our board is laid out to do is what my kind of message and I have a lot to learn. So I'm happy to meet with people at any time in terms on a call or at a DrupalCon or what have you. So you're very open to hearing people's ideas. I will say I had the pleasure of talking to Tim DrupalCon a couple of a couple of times on a couple of different occasions and you know, had really great conversations. So I would I would implore the community if you're at an event or you you see Tim and you have an idea like definitely, definitely walk up to him and express your idea because he's definitely a great conversation list and very open. To hearing all the ideas the community has. Well, Tim, thank you for joining us. It's a pleasure having you. Thank you for joining us. And I'm sure we'll have you on again, you know, as the strategic initiatives move forward. Yeah, no, thank you for the opportunity and we'd love to come back in the future as time permits. Do you have questions or feedback? Reach out to Talking Drupal on Twitter with the handle Talking Drupal or by email with show at Talking Drupal dot com. You can connect with our hosts and other listeners on Drupal Slack in the Talking Drupal channel.



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 OK, so Tim Doyle, if our listeners did want to get in touch with you, has some questions, what's the best way for them to do that?



 Probably email. So my email is Tim Doyle at Association Drupal dot org. It's probably the easiest way to just shoot an email.



 Great. And Tim Plunkett, how about you?



 For now, you can reach out via Twitter as long as it continues to function at Tim Plunkett.



 And John Pecosie, how about you?



 You can find me on all the major social networks, and Drupal.org @ John Picozzi. And you can find out more about E-PAM at E-P-A-M dot com.



 And you can find me @nicxvan pretty much everywhere.



 If you've enjoyed listening, we've enjoyed talking. Have a good one, everyone. See you next week.