TD Cafe #019 - From Drupal to FIRST Robotics

Steve: Hi, Michael Hey Good to see you here at the cafe.

Michael: Thanks. Good to see you too. Good.

Steve: Uh, you and I have been involved with Drupal for a long time, uh, I think both predominantly in the, in the back-end region of, of Drupal. Uh- That's

Michael: right. Yeah.

Steve: And I, yeah, I'm, I'm always, like, fascinated by how people get started in Drupal and that kind of thing and, and, uh, I think we're both, like, we definitely fit the, the meme of we came for the code and stayed for the community.

Uh- Yeah, for sure Would you agree with that, that statement?

Michael: Yeah. Um, and actually, like, when I got my first Drupal job, I had no idea what Drupal was. Um, I just, I knew PHP, so I applied for a job that mentioned PHP, and it happened to be at the university that gr- I graduated from. So, um, yeah, I started there in Drupal 7, um, just over 10 years ago.

Steve: And it's funny, you and I, I both got our start with Drupal at, uh, in the education scene. I was at Syracuse University when I first got introduced to Drupal and- Okay I did it the opposite. I learned PHP, uh, after the, the Drupal introduction. One cause-

Michael: Interesting. Yeah. Um, yeah, the university that I, uh, went to for my computer science major was, uh, Northern Michigan University, and then I worked there for, gosh, uh, six years.

Five or six years. Um, and then I've been with CivicAction since.

Steve: I think that's a pretty common story. You know, whenever I meet with, with people at Drupal camps and DrupalCons, I ask them for, you know, what their, what their startup story is, and I think, you know, a large majority of them started with, with higher ed institutions, so it's kinda, kind of a common theme.

Um-

Michael: Yeah, I've noticed that a lot as well.

Steve: Not a bad theme.

Michael: No.

Steve: I've got no complaints about it. It's been good to me over time. I

Michael: think ... Yeah, and I think that has to do with, like, Drupal just being almost kinda, like, made for the way universities are laid out, um, as far as their online presence.

Steve: Mm-hmm. So what's been your experience with the community?

What, why do, why do you like it?

Michael: Yeah. So, uh, soon after I got started with, um, Drupal, I went to my first DrupalCon in New Orleans, um, in 2016, I wanna say. And, um, yeah, it w- I was pretty much blown away, um- By like all of the, um, camaraderie and the, the things like the, um, birds of a feather and how everybody's working together to, um, like, you know, work on issues in the, the queue on, on D.O and things like that.

Um, it was just nice to see how everyone was working together even though they weren't necessarily, you know, from the same company or... Yeah, pretty much. Yeah.

Steve: Yeah, I think that's, that's definitely the same for me. I like the, the idea that we're all working together towards something. Uh, and not just from, you know, people in our company or it's like worldwide and- Mm-hmm

uh, that's, that's kind of a cool thing. And it, it's also cool the way, you know, different people bring different slants to, uh, to modules as far as like, you know- Right ... they have a module that does something and then somebody else says, "Well, I, you know, I like this, but I wanna do more with it. I wanna take it in a, in a slightly different direction," and, uh, that kind of thing.

It's just, it's been cool for me to, to see that, that play out, uh, and be a part of it.

Michael: Yeah, for sure. And it's like, I mean, you know, people come from all different, uh, places in life and, and stuff like that, so there's a lot of different perspectives on how things could be done or should be done. Um, and that only helps, I think, with like an open source tool like Drupal.

Steve: Yeah. Very cool. You and I are also ex- uh, experienced in a, in another aspect. You and I are both, uh, mentors for, uh, FIRST Robotics. And I- Yes ... I see a huge, huge number of overlaps between these, so I think, you know, we'll spend part of this time just sort of discussing that. But, uh, we should probably start for anybody listening for, like, what is FIRST Robotics?

Um, what's... You got an elevator pitch for what FIRST Robotics is?

Michael: Yeah. Um, so FIRST Robotics is a lot of things. Um, but mainly it's a, a elementary school, um, or K through 12 school robotics program, I guess. Um, and there are more than one. Like, there's VEX Robotics, but, um, I think FIRST is probably the most common.

Um, I couldn't tell you what FIRST stands for, um, but I do believe it is an acronym. It

Steve: is an acronym, and I think R is robotics. Um-

Michael: Yeah. Right.

Steve: So it's, it's kind of a repetitive acronym to call it FIRST Robotics, but-

Michael: Right ...

Steve: um.

Michael: Like PHP. Yeah,

Steve: yeah. Very similar. See? There's overlap here. Uh, yeah, it's, it's a worldwide organization that, that, um, I think, you know, started, started in the States, but there's teams from all over the, all over the world now.

Uh, but I... Like, the basic premise of it was kind of cool in that, uh, I think, uh, Dean Kamen and Woodie Flowers set out to create a, an experience for nerds, for smart kids, for people that wanna build stuff, for where they would feel like rock stars, uh, as part of the experience. Um, you know, and, and get the, the rush of, like, a sports team or a, you know, a rock star sort of thing.

And I, I think that- Right ... you know, it definitely sort of fuels that when you, when you go to a competition and, you know, the music is pumping and they're, they're- ... the announcers are going and, uh, you know, doing their thing, it, it definitely feels like that. So I think, you know, definitely mission accomplished there.

Um- But it, it's, uh, it's been a, a, a cool ride for me. You've, you've been in this a while, right?

Michael: Yes. I've been doing this since, um, just before COVID, actually. So, um, December of 2019 was when I first started, um, mentoring. Um, it started as a request from my wife's stepdad. Um, he's a technology director for the school system and, um, when he got hired, they asked him if he would take over the robotics program, and he had, you know, no idea what it would be like.

Well, I didn't either. Neither of us did, but he asked if I would help, um, mainly in, like, the programming aspect of it. Um, but that first year, we both kinda did everything, um, between the, the programming, the, the mechanical stuff, and electrical, um, you know, designing the robot even. Um, it was a huge learning experience for us as well as the kids that year, so, um-

Steve: I'm sure I'm sure.

Yeah, my- I've only been into involved with it recently. My son has, uh, he's going into his fourth year of participating in, in the robotics for we're in high school, uh, starting this year. And, uh, you know, the first couple years I wasn't really involved with it other than we went to a competition once. Um, and then now they've, the, the current team has decided to split off.

They were running into... Theirs was a, a school-run team, and they were having trouble with getting permission from the school to raise, raise funds in the way that they needed to raise funds. Uh, you know, this gets kind of expensive for fielding a- For sure ... creating a robot- Oh, yeah. ... and fielding a robot, and going to competitions, and they were just kinda limited by the school.

So, uh, finally, you know, like at the very end of this past school year, they said, you know, "Let's, let's start a, a community team that's outside of the school." And they, you know, sorta asked me to be their, their lead, lead mentor on that. Um, which doesn't mean that I lead. That means I sign the checks and handle the, the official paperwork and and all of that kind of thing.

Uh, and so yeah, we're kicking off a new team, so we've formed Compass Robotics, uh, and are, are into trying to raise funds now. Um, what's your team's name?

Michael: Uh, we are the Minerbotix. So, um, we're in Negaunee, Michigan, which is in the UP, um, and there's a strong mining history around here, so a lot of different schools have names that kinda stem from that mining tradition.

Um, so yeah, the, the school's mascot is the Miners, so our team, robotics team became Minerbotix.

Steve: Nice.

Michael: Um, yeah, team 4827. Um, I think it started in 2013 maybe.

Steve: I think that sounds about right.

Michael: Yeah.

Steve: Uh, yeah, it's cool you have a nice low number. We haven't, we haven't- Yeah. ... been assigned a number yet. We only have a temporary number.

Oh, right.

Michael: Interesting. Yeah.

Steve: Yeah. We're still waiting on that to be able to apply for grants. Um-

Michael: Yeah. It'll be over 10,000 now, I think

Steve: Oh yeah, I think they, last year they were starting, they had 11,000-

Michael: Okay.

Steve: Yeah ... numbered, numbered teams, uh- Yeah ... for the, the rookie teams. Um, we, we're starting because we've got more than six team members that have more than a year experience in FIRST.

We're starting as what's called a new veteran team.

Michael: Oh.

Steve: And so we're- they're, like, retroactively assigning us a number from farther back in the stack. I don't quite know how it, how it works- Huh ... but we're not gonna get a, a new rookie team number. Uh, we're getting a new veteran team number. Uh, fun.

Michael: That's interesting.

Um, it was kind of like the opposite when, when we took over the team. We, we kept our number, um, but as far as, like, being a rookie versus a veteran team, we were considered a rookie team because- Mm ... it was all new students, new coaches. Um, we just happened to be, you know, the same school. So.

Steve: Gotcha.

Michael: Um, but we, uh, we were able to apply for, like, rookie grants and stuff like that our first year, so that was super helpful.

Steve: Mm. I, I, you know, one of the... I guess one of the first overlaps I noticed with, uh, the Drupal community and, uh, and FIRST is that, uh, is the way, the way things... Well, not just even the Drupal community, but, like, you and I are in the, sort of in the government space, and it's popular now in, uh, in the government agencies where when they have a, a contract that they wanna create, uh, for doing work for the government, they, they release a tech challenge, and the tech challenge is, is some, like, you know, three to five-day job that they want, uh, done as an example.

And they kind of, like, they release this, and everybody's waiting around for the release. And then when they release the, the requirements for the tech challenge, right, a whole bunch of people swarm on it and try to solve the problem and, and do so within, you know, whatever the requirement is- Yeah ... for that particular challenge.

And FIRST Robotics is very similar in, you know, you know, second week of January, uh, they drop a, a video of- Mm-hmm ... here's what your... Here are the challenges that your robot's gonna need to do, and you've got, like, eight-ish weeks to, uh, to pull the team together and, and pull that off. Uh, and the requirements for each game are different.

Um, but you know, it's, it still has a very similar feel for it. It's like, okay, it's, it's go time. And it's, you know, we've gotta solve this. Uh- Right ... and you, you know, so I definitely notice, notice an overlap there.

Michael: Yeah, for sure. Um, yeah, that- so that, that event is called the Kickoff. Um, and, um, there are usually, uh, so in our area, a whole bunch of schools come together for that, and we all watch the video together, and, uh, there's a bunch of programming around it.

Um, and then we all go our separate ways, and, um, some teams will, will stay together and, and brainstorm a little bit, but mostly we all go our separate ways. And, um, like my team for instance, we go back to our, our school robotics room, and we, we talk about the challenge, but we don't really start, um, thinking about, like, our robot design or anything yet that day.

It's more, um, just kinda absorbing, you know, the rules and stuff like that, um, of, of the upcoming season. Um, but yeah, there's, uh... So it's, it's like that tech challenge, but to a, a little bit lesser extent 'cause, you know, we have a lot more time. But there is, um, there are college teams, um, out there who aren't, like, official FIRST teams, but they will build, um, you know, they get the kickoff, uh, materials at the same time, you know, we do, but then they give themselves three days to build a robot and a competitive robot.

Um, and it's, it's a nice resource 'cause then they, you know, they put out YouTube videos and they put out their, their CAD designs and their, their programming and all that kinda stuff. So it's a, a great use resource for, you know, high school teams to use, um, in their own, um, you know, robot design or whatever.

Steve: Yeah, I'm a big fan of the Robot in 3 Days videos. They're, they're fun to watch. It's fun to watch the iterations and the fail fast mentality- Yeah ... that we preach in, you know, in our daily work, right? Fail fast so you can figure out what works- Mm-hmm ... and what doesn't. And it, and it's fun to see the, like, the Robot in 3 Days team sort of pull that off.

Uh, but it's also fun to sorta, like, watch them degrade by, like, day three when they're all running on, like, an hour and a half of sleep and- Right. And, and that kinda thing. But, you know, definitely it, if it plays out, it helps the team, but it's also kinda funny that, you know, like, my son is now where he's looking for colleges, and the, you know, he wants one of his choices, like, as far as what am I looking for in a college is do they have a Robot in 3 Days team-

Michael: Yeah,

Steve: absolutely

to continue participating in this. And he's, you know, very, very into that. Uh, so that's, that's kinda funny.

Michael: Yeah. But- And that's, that's also, like, one of the benefits of FIRST also is, um, it gives you that experience, um, for some colleges. Uh, for instance, we had a competition at Central Michigan University, um, one year, and there were several kids after visiting that campus that applied to Central Michigan University for their robotics program.

Um, and yeah, so there's, there's lots of, like, things like that that are really beneficial for the high school students

Steve: Um, um, you know, it, it just sort of astounds me as we're going through, like, for just getting in- involved with it, you know, mainly for my second year, but first year is actually, um, how, how well the, how good the model is in terms of the, you know, teams helping teams. Like, we run into this, I think, all the time and, you know, you and I run into this all the time in, in our day jobs of, yes, we work with, uh, you know, for a company that's trying to be competitive, uh, in, you know, a certain, in the, in the government space for, you know, using Drupal to solve, uh, real world, real, real world problems.

Um, but we also have this sort of knowledge of, like, you know, that the, the people that we're bidding against in a particular contract may be the people that we're playing with and asking to partner with in a different contract. Right. And so, you know, the, the basic idea of never burn a bridge. Um, but I like that FIRST is kind of laid out the same way.

I mean, people share information, um, and, you know, support each other, not just in sort of words, um-

Michael: Mm-hmm ...

Steve: but in, you know, in actual action, supporting other teams, uh, sharing information with teams. You know, one of the, one of the cool things that I experienced this past year is, you know, during the competition, um, we had a driving accident where we, like, wrapped our, our robot around, uh, one of the barriers, and it bent the, the intake rod that we needed.

So, you know, what used to be straight was now, uh, bent like this. And within minutes of, of our team getting back to the pit where they work on the robot in between matches, another- There's the, the piece that we needed that was probably a 60 to $70 polycarbonate tube. Like, they recognized- Yes ... that we needed that before we asked anybody for it, and they're like, "Team," you know, I don't remember what, what team number it was, but, "Team 132, we'd like to offer you this, uh, so you can continue-" Yes

like, you know, that was just a, an amazing experience to me and it, it, it, it fills me with hope for about, you know, how, uh, the same way I like being in Drupal for the same reasons.

Michael: Right. Yeah. There's that, that, like, the open source mentality of, of, you know, um, Drupal and, um, FIRST Robotics is very similar in that way.

Um, and they have a, a, like, a coined term that they call cooper-tition, which is, you know, it's, it's a competition, but you're also cooperating, you know, with all the different teams. So sometimes you'll play, um, against a team, and sometimes they'll be your partner. So, um, it's really, uh, like, you try to build each other up, um, and yeah, help each other out.

Um, there are plenty of times where robots break and other teams, um, you know, help you get back in the, the, um, the arena. Um, uh, uh, my first year taking it, like, the team over, um, we were down near Detroit in, uh, a competition and our robot just got smashed, like, super hard. Um, and we had, like, this ground intake that would, like, fold down from the robot, um, and, you know, pick balls up off the floor, and somebody just rammed into it when, when the intake was down and it just mangled it.

And, um, this, this was during the, um, like, the playoffs or, you know, after the alliance selection and stuff like that. Um, and we had, had teams that weren't even participating in the playoffs, and, and t- other teams that we would've had to go against later come in and give us parts. And we ended up, um, so we, our intake had, like, polycarbonate on the sides.

Um, but we ended up so someone gave us, like, a little menu board, and that ended up becoming one of our sides. So it's, it's very, like, uh, there's a lot of ingenuity and, and stuff like that that goes on, so- MacGyvering

Steve: going on.

Michael: Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Exactly.

Steve: Yeah, yeah. I, I, you know, my first experience, uh, last year, uh, before I became a mentor was, you know, I was just in the s- in the stands cheering for my son's team and, and he invited me to come down where they work on the robot. Uh, 'cause they had had, they had a, a breakage that they were having trouble sol- solving.

And when I got there, you know, there was other people in the pit, and some of them I reali- you know, recognized 'cause they was friends from the, the team and that kind of thing. But, you know, one of them I didn't recognize, and he had a, a shirt on from another team. And, uh, you know, I said, you know, "Not to be rude, but, like, why are, why are you here helping?"

And, and, uh, he was from a, a team called the Ninjaneers. And, uh, he said, "You know, that's, that's what I do at this, at this tournament. I, you know, I walk around as I'm a veteran that's been, been through, uh, you know, I'm a, a fourth-year veteran and, and I know how to fix things. And so, you know, my team's got things covered with our robot, so I walk around and- Mm-hmm

and help people in, in the spirit of cooperation." And that, that, like- Yeah ... literally transformed me. In, like, 30 seconds I, you know, I got goosebumps. I was like, this, this is where I, I need to be 'cause it's- Yeah ... you know, it's an exact match for how people help people out on, uh, you know, on the issue queue on drupal.org and, and- Yep

the community there. It just, it, that, that cemented it immediately.

Michael: Right. Yeah. It's, uh- It's really nice to see, um, especially, like, in high school and, you know, middle school if you, if you go down to the lower tiers of, of FIRST Robotics, um, how they really encourage that and, and, like, bake it into, like, their principles.

Um, so, uh, they have, like, awards that they give out at these competitions, um, not just for, you know, building the best robot or whatever, um, but they call it, like, gracious professionalism, and a lot of that is, you know, helping other teams out and, um, you know, cheering for other teams and, and just being an overall, you know, good, like, person to other teams.

So, um, yeah, it's, it's something that, you know, they- they've really baked into the program and a lot of teams really excel at it, and it rubs off onto newer rookie teams and, you know, eventually they'll start doing the same thing. So it's, it's, yeah, it's really nice.

Steve: Yeah. It's, it's cool. I mean, you know, I was in, in education teaching physics for, uh, you know, a decade, and there's really nothing baked into our education system that builds that kind of cooperativeness, uh, at that level.

Like, the, you know, FIRST I think really, really pulls it off well. Uh, and I, you know, I... They, they even have, you know, one of their big, big awards is the, the Impact Award. Right. Uh, and where teams are trying to outdo each other on how much impact they can have, uh, on their community, on the world, on FIRST, whatever.

Um, you've got, you know, had some great experience with that.

Michael: Yeah. Um, yeah, so for, uh, Impact, it's, it's more about what you do outside of, you know, the r- the FIRST competitions, um, to help your community, those around you. Um, so for instance, um, one of the summers in between, like, our robot seasons, um, our team took on a challenge of, um, like, building and programming a, uh, mobility device for a student at our schools- Mm-hmm

who had trouble, you know, moving around. So we built this little, like, buggy cart thing with a little joystick that controlled how it moved, and there were, um, like, bumpers around it, so, like, if it bumped into something, it would stop the motors. And, um, yeah, it was really fun, um, and really gratifying. Yeah, it was nice.

So we, we also still do, like, the, the maintenance of it, so, um, yeah, if anything ever happens with it, um, something stops working, you know, we'll fix it up, so.

Steve: Miner Robotics guarantees their, their product life. Nice.

Michael: Yeah, right.

Steve: That's awesome. That's a great story.

Michael: Yeah, and that, I mean, that relates to Drupal i- in a way as well.

Um, you know, one of Drupal's, um, you know, core things is accessibility. Like, it's, it's great at making accessible websites and, um, you know, that's helpful for everyone.

Steve: That's, that's a good point. That's, that's als- that's also why I chose Drupal to make the, the team's website. Uh, you know, and I've got it, uh, specced out so it, it, you know, does their contact relations manager so they can raise money with it.

It's got their, um, Kanban board so they can, like, schedule stuff for, for what needs to be done during build season and, and off-season, um, and all of that kinda thing. And we're also running the financials through it as well.

Michael: Right.

Steve: Uh, and it's cool just to be able to use, use Drupal to do things that, uh, uh, that Drupal can do and do well, but that we don't usually do with Drupal in the, in our day jobs in- Right

in the government space. Yep. Uh, so it's been kind of fun, fun for me to do that. Uh, and of course, open source that website so, uh-

Michael: Yeah ...

Steve: they can, they can be replicated if needed.

Michael: Um, have you used any, like, newer Drupal tools for that, like, uh, Recipes or anything like that, that are, would be good to you?

Steve: Well, it's funny.

I, I started with CMS, um, you know, for the CMS- Mm-hmm ... not really distribution, sort of a recipe, collection of recipes. Um, and started with that, and started using Canvas, but then ran into trouble with, um, things just not, not quite aligning right with some of the modules that I was using, uh, that wouldn't, didn't really play nicely with Canvas.

And so I ended up spending a fair amount of time ripping Canvas back out, um, so that it would play nicer. You know, some of these, some of the modules, uh, for, like, the Kanban boards and, um, and the financials were, were kind of opinionated and just didn't play nice with the, the newer technology yet. Um, and rather- Yes

rather than wait, uh, for them to catch up, I was like, "No, I, I gotta, I gotta get this site out." Mm. Uh, so I ended up tearing, tearing some things out there. Uh, and we'll probably put them back later. Uh-

Michael: Yeah ...

Steve: but, you know- At least they're, at least they're a little more organized ... these were, these were growing pains, but it did give me a reason to, like, play with Canvas and play with some of the, the newer site templates and things like that to see how they were working and, uh-

Michael: Yeah

Steve: you know. So that, that was kinda fun.

Michael: Awesome. Um, just curious, how m- how, like, how many hours did you have to put in to get your site running

Steve: for- Oh, uh, I would say I probably got 120 hours- Okay ... into it. Um- That's not too bad ... just nighttime hours kinda thing.

Michael: Yep.

Steve: Uh, you know, like, uh, you know, main- mainly playing with, playing with some of the newer stuff.

I think I, I sunk a lot of time into that. Uh, and then spent a fair amount of time, like, tearing that stuff out. Um, you know, there's a, there's a couple bugs still out there the community's resolving. Uh, but also a lot of the, the other modules, like the, uh, the financial module and the, um, burndown module for, for Kanban and agile boards, um, I needed to make some contributions to.

Uh, and so far the, the, uh- The maintainers of those modules have been, like, really helpful at merging stuff in pretty quickly, so been really excited about that. Um- Do

Michael: you have plans to, um, like, get any of the students involved in, in some of that

Steve: Drupal issue queue? Uh, I would. I should probably not showing int- like, do you mean in terms of, like, learning Drupal-

Michael: Yeah, and well-

and maintenance stuff? Through, through, through your, you know, team site. Yeah.

Steve: Uh, I, I would. I don't have anybody just yet that's, like, s- expressed an interest in that. Uh, you know, they, now they wanna focus on raising money and-

Michael: Yeah ...

Steve: and getting robots and, and doing social media. We're, we're ... We got a heavy, heavy focus on social media for this year to kinda get the word out for- Yep

the new team. Um, so I, you know, I would. If I had somebody that was, that was interested, I'd definitely wanna teach them, them Drupal. Uh, and I, and I try to provide teachable moments for 'em. Like I, you know, "This is really nice in Drupal because you can- ... we can have different roles, so the business team can see different things than the, you know, the engineering team can see."

Uh, so-

Michael: Yeah. Neat ...

Steve: teach the

Michael: basics. That's cool. But yeah, that's, that's like, I mean, you kinda touch on one of the reasons why my team doesn't have a website is 'cause it's hard to get some students interested in that, um, especially when there's so much other stuff that needs to happen for robotics. Yep. Um, there's just a ton, ton of stuff, um, that, uh, is very time con- time-consuming and, and, you know, resource-consuming in general, I guess.

Um, yeah, with, uh, running a team with just, uh, two mentors, which I don't know if you have any other mentors on your team, but, uh, or if you're, if you're going solo. But, um, it's, uh, it is very time-consuming, especially once it gets to- We've got

Steve: four now, and I'm-

Michael: Okay. ... and

Steve: I'm very happy to have them.

Michael: Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

Um, yeah. And that's like, so when we started six years ago, um, and didn't know anything about FIRST, anything about robotics really, um, we just knew we were both, uh, you know, technologically inclined. Um, and I knew programming pretty well. Um, and like I learned Java when I was in college, 'cause that's, uh, the main language that our college taught all of its classes through.

Um, so we, we programmed our, our robot in Java. Um, and it was, uh- Like, trying to get some of those kids to, to learn some of those very advanced concepts, um, in object-oriented programming and stuff like that, stuff that I didn't learn until I was two, three years into my college career, has been a pretty big struggle.

Um, and, uh, it's ... Like, it requires a lot of time, and our team, like during the, the, the actual, uh, competition season, we put about, mm, four to six hours a week into our robot, and that is not nearly enough time to get everything we want done. Um, but we do the best we can. Um, and sometimes it, it's we're successful and sometimes we're not, but

Steve: yeah.

Yeah, I think members of my team have a, uh, have a desire to like, you know, they, they're, they're more excited about pulling the all-nighters working on the robot than, than a lot of it. Yeah. Like, I think that's part of the, the culture they've, they've sort of adopted is like, you know, "We're gonna, we're gonna spend a lot of hours working on this, uh, in the last two weeks."

Michael: Yep.

Steve: Um, and it's kind of funny to, to see it play out.

Michael: Yeah, I, I will say the last two weeks before our first meet is pretty chaotic and there are a lot more hours put in than, um, to try to get everything, you know, buttoned up or, yeah. Yeah.

Steve: Yeah, it's- Um, we- ... it's very important to, to our team that the, that our, our particular team is like, uh, mentor-advised but student-run.

Mm-hmm.

Michael: Right. And,

Steve: you know, so I have to make sure I keep my hands off the robot and, you know- Yeah ... they do all the work on the robot, that kind of thing. And not, not all the teams are, you know, take that approach, uh- Right ... based on their size or whatever, but it, it's like one of the- Yeah ... the core principles of the team that, that they wanted to carry with them, uh, from their old team to this team.

So it's-

Michael: Yeah. I applaud that. Yeah, that's, that's, that's awesome, and, um, I applaud teams who do that. Um- ... we're not quite at that level. Um, we do try to let the kids, um, build everything on the robot. Um, when things go wrong, however, we usually will step in and, um, take something over, um, if we need to. Um, and then as far as like programming, that, like is mostly done by mentors, um, with, you know...

Usually what I'll do is I'll, I'll, I'll get like all the basics in and then we'll work on subsystems and, you know, controls for those subsystems together. Um, and you know, I'll let the kids figure out some of the logic and stuff like that. But as far as like, um, a lot of the more advanced principles, it's just something that they're not gonna pick up in a season or even two probably.

But yeah.

Um, however, there are a lot of resources out there that can help people as well. Um, so, um, I certainly am not an expert in robotics programming, um, but, uh, there are forums and YouTube videos, and they've got documentation on their, uh, like, um The, like the, for the frameworks that are used in, uh, FRC, um, that it's all really helpful.

Um, and then there are a lot of companies that, that make products for these robots that have documentation for how their products work and stuff like that as well. So, um, it's a l- a lot of it is open source, but there are some things that are not because they're proprietary or whatever, but yeah.

Steve: Right.

Yeah, it's kinda funny seeing the rise of the, the companies that, that build a lot of the products for the robots. You know, f- and looking back at videos of, of FIRST competitions from like 15 years ago, the robots are very diverse in terms of their- Yes ... their approach to the game and what they look like.

Uh, and now it seems like they've all sort of morphed to the crabs. Uh, they, they- ... they, they, they have very similar looks these days, uh, but are, you know, I think are much more refined in a lot of ways. Um-

Michael: Right. Yeah, that's something that you pick on, pick up on each year. Um, and there are like ... So there are teams out there that will design a robot for other teams to use.

Um, so it's something that we've used in the past. It's called an Everybot. Um, and I think it's a team out of Houston, um, that designs it every year. They usually have it out within the first couple of weeks after kickoff. And, um, they give you a list of like components that you need to buy or, uh, fabricate.

Um, they give you code. Um, like when I did it, the code was in C++, so I had to, I just had to write it myself anyways, but you know, it's there and you can, you can transpose it or whatever, you know. Um, and yeah, it's, uh, so a lot of teams will end up going that route, and FIRST has kind of adopted that also in the last couple of years with their KitBot.

Um, so it's, it's meant to be like a, a starting ground for, for robots and for rookie teams and s- and stuff like that, that don't necessarily have all of that institutional knowledge of, you know-

Stephen: Right ...

Michael: how past games were played and stuff like that. So, um, they'll, they'll put that out right with kickoff, um, the KitBot, and yeah, it's just a, like a, a starting point for teams, and it'll do a, a couple of the different kind of challenges in, in each match, I guess, um, and be somewhat competitive, but usually you need to do something else to it to make it, you know, more

Steve: competitive.

Yeah, it's, it's nice that they create an on-ramp for, you know, uh- Yeah ... like teams at all levels, and that's, that's the cool part about it. Um, you know, again, similar to Drupal in a lot of ways, like you can approach Drupal from a lot of different levels. Uh, you don't- Yeah ... have to be a PHP expert to get started with it.

Uh, it, it's the same kinda thing, thing with FIRST and, you know, I think that's admirable. Uh-

Michael: Yeah, for sure

Um, another, like, aspect of that, um, is, uh, like there are different, um

Like, I want to say, like, positions on the team, right? So there's, uh- Oh,

Stephen: no ...

Michael: you know, you've got your, your mechanical, like, builders, people who are putting the actual pieces of the robot together or fabricating parts or, um, you've got your electrical engineers who are, you know, wiring the robot for all the different things.

Um, you've got your programmers, and then you've got people who might not even touch the robots, um, like business people, marketing, uh, social media, website. Um, uh, so there's a lot of different, um, like, aspects that come together for your team, um, in a similar way that, that Drupal is kind of like you don't have to be a, a programmer to contribute.

You know, there are other things you can do, whether it's documentation or, or, you know, some kind of diagrams or, um, um, marketing, I guess.

Steve: Ab- abs- absolutely. Yeah, we're just going through that now. Struggling with naming some of the, the leadership roles for some of the, the subteams and- Yeah ... and, uh, yeah. So it's, it's, it's fun seeing it come all together and seeing the- these students think about all the different aspects of it.

Yep. And, uh, I'm, I'm enjoying it.

Michael: Yeah. Usually something that we do at the beginning of every season is, um, so all the new kids that come onto the team, all the freshmen, um, we'll, we'll try to get them to try each sub- subteam. So, you know, they'll, they'll spend a day helping out with build, or they'll spend a day helping out with wiring and, um, and, like, trying to get them exposure to everything and figure out what they want to do to help the team.

Um, so I know, like, before we took the team over in the past, there were, there were times where people were, like, pigeonholed into what they had to do for the team, and they didn't necessarily like it. So, um, we try to give everyone that chance to figure out what they do like and how they want to contribute, so.

Steve: Absolutely. Yeah, it's, it's good to have a, a broad team in terms of their experience and that kind of thing. Uh, you know, the, the... One of the things that impresses me is not, not just what a particular student learns at, you know, one of the roles or whatever- Mm-hmm ... is just how the whole team learns to handle adversity.

Uh, you know, the just like- Yeah ... setback after setback from one thing or another not working, breaking, uh- Yeah ... during competition or any of that. Uh, again, there's really nothing that I've seen, like through my son's, you know, life with school and, and school related things, there's very little that prepares them other than maybe sports for, uh, setbacks and adversity.

And it- Right ... it's just cool to, you know, like this past competition we had, you know, robot issues, issue after issue, uh, several times and, you know, the kids didn't get down about it. They didn't like lose the- lose themselves in that moment in despair and that kind of thing. They like, "Okay, this is what we're gonna fix, and we're gonna try and, try and get it fixed in the next 20 minutes to field it for the next competition."

Mm-hmm. And like, uh, and I, you know, it's like that really impresses me at the, at the way they have learned to handle adversity and, and those kind of setbacks. 'Cause, you know, a lot of students on, on my team, they're very good at school. They, you know, school comes very easy for them, that kind of thing.

Mm-hmm. Uh, they're not used to experiencing setbacks in that, you know, adversity in that- Right ... in that level. And so it's, it's cool for me to see them have that, have them ex- have that exposure through the FIRST team.

Michael: Yeah. And it's, it's funny 'cause there's a, like a, there's a term that I, I think of for that, and it usually doesn't have connotations with robotics, but grit.

Um, you know, usually grit is something that people think of, uh, as being like a physical thing. Like, um, you know, your, like n- no pain, no gain kind of thing, right? Um, but- Mm-hmm ... it's, it's not. It's more of, like, repeating tasks so that you can keep getting better. Um, and yeah, um, being able to handle those setbacks, um, and, and keep improving upon them.

So yeah, I think grit is a good, a good term for, uh, robotics.

Steve: Yeah. No, that's, that's- Yeah, that's a perfect term for it. Kind of fits good. Was that Angela Duckworth that wrote the book, Grit?

Michael: Yes. Yeah. Yep. Uh-

Steve: That's right. Yeah. That's very fitting. It definitely teaches that, and I, you know, I'm seeing it with, with all the students last year and looking forward to seeing it with them this year.

Yeah. And definitely, definitely see that. And, uh, yeah. Yeah. Well, I

Michael: think

Steve: that's probably... Oh, go ahead.

Michael: I was, I was just gonna mention, um, that, uh, you know, we've been talking about, like FRC this, this, most of this time, but there are, um, you know, lower levels of FIRST Robotics as well. Um, uh, so FRC is kinda like the, the varsity, um, if you're, if you're comparing it to school sports.

It's like the varsity team kind of. And then there's, uh, FIRST Tech Challenge, which is, like, uh, very similar but to a, a smaller scale. Um, it's cheaper, um, a little easier to get into. Um, and it works, like, you can start it in middle school, I believe, seventh grade, um, and then all the way through high school again.

Um, and then below that there's the, the FIRST LEGO League, which I don't know how much longer it's gonna be called that. Um, I think maybe this is the last year it'll be FIRST LEGO League. Um, but that covers- Or some other product

Steve: league. Yeah.

Michael: Yeah. Right. Yeah. Um, but yeah, that covers, like, kindergarten through, you know, eighth grade or something like that.

So, um, there's a, a lot of ways for, for kids to get involved in robotics, um, which I wish was a thing when I was a kid.

Steve: Me, me too. Yeah. Definitely. So yeah, so if anybody's listening is interested in either getting their, their kids into it or interested in becoming mentors, uh, firstinspires.org is the, the website they should check out.

And I think on that they can locate teams in their area if they wanted to apply- Yeah ... for mentorship or, or representation on that team. Yeah. I don't know. It's, it's been a cool experience for me so far and, uh, I really appreciate all the... And I'm sure we've missed things, but I, I really appreciate all the overlap there is with the Drupal community, 'cause it's just- Yeah

it's, it's cool to, to see the similarities and experience them in both worlds

Michael: Yeah, for sure. And I, I find overlaps with Drupal in lots of different things. But yeah, with robotics, it's, it's very apparent. Um, and yeah.

Stephen: Hmm.

Steve: I think we've about, uh, beat the topic for robotics to death. And, and, uh, I've en- I've enjoyed talking it over with you, and, uh, yeah.

Good luck with the, the coming, uh, year for, for Minor Robotics.

Michael: Yes. Thank you. And, and good luck to you as well- Yeah. Thank you ... with Compass Robotics. Yeah.

Steve: Yeah. Thank you. Good talking to you, Michael. You

Michael: too. Bye-bye.