TD Cafe #021 - Meet Tim Sharp

[00:00:00]

Stephen: Tim, welcome to the cafe.

Tim: Hey, Steven. Happy to be here.

Stephen: So I just want you to know that we just got our liquor license here. So, um, but so the cafe is wide open to you, so if you were choosing a drink today, and it is, uh, 3:00-

as we record this, would you go for a hot beverage, or would you go for a cocktail? What would be your 3:00 PM drink-

Tim: Oh, gosh ... of choice? Wow. Well, I, um, definitely, uh, do colder. I, um... Gosh, well, you know, I actually, I worked at a winery for a bit.

Stephen: Okay.

Tim: And so I, I w- I like red wine. Um, that's, that's, that's great.

Um, but, um, well, actually, I don't know. Actually, you know what? No, no, no, no, no. Okay, here we go. Take it back. I would go for a hoppy IPA.

Stephen: Okay, there

Tim: you go. Easy little thing.

Stephen: Okay.

Tim: That is the number [00:01:00] one.

Stephen: All right.

Tim: Yeah.

Stephen: I didn't know it's October, and if you're gonna say some sort of pumpkin spice thing.

Tim: Oh.

Yeah. I mean, the Oktoberfests are, are pretty good. Oh, yeah. Um, I l- yeah, I don't normally go for a Marzen, but, um, but yeah, I, I think around this time it does get a little fun.

Stephen: My daughter went to, uh, school, she went, did a, did a semester in, uh, Budapest.

Tim: Ooh.

Stephen: And so she took a period of time where she would travel all through Europe, and just the other day I was, we were talking to her and I said, "Oh, you know, we're in Oktoberfest," and she said, "Dad, no, I went to Oktoberfest.

In Germany," she says, "Oktoberfest is before October. It's getting ready for October." I didn't even know that.

Tim: I, I didn't know that either. I thought that would've been in the height of October.

Stephen: Well, nope. That's the name. Nope. No? She says, "It's in September, Dad." Oh. Okay. All right. Um, so I wanted to [00:02:00] chat with you, invite you and just learn a little bit about you because, so we're doing Talking Drupal, and all of a sudden this guy, Tea Sharp, T-E-A Sharp, starts showing up in the Talking Drupal channel, um, on a regular basis, and we absolutely love that.

Um, a few months later, he's a guest host on the show. Uh- Yeah ... so I just wanted to... And I, and I've obviously listened to the episodes. I know that you're relatively new to Drupal.

Tim: Mm-hmm.

Stephen: Um, and you have a great perspective, I think, to Drupal as the technology coming from where you are to where kinda Drupal is trying to be right now.

So I hear like a lot- Yeah ... of your questions and comments in the episodes are like, this guy has, like, got the ear of me, and to probably other people who are trying to get Drupal back down to- Like less enterprise-y kind of [00:03:00] place. So I wanted to just chat with you- Yeah ... and learn about you.

Tim: Oh, yeah. Yeah. I, so, um, yeah, I, I'm r- I, so I say I'm new to Drupal, but I've, I've been with it for about, like, three years now.

Okay. I work at, um, at Appalachian State University in North Carolina. Mm-hmm. And, um, we were on 7 for the longest time. And in a way, that was actually really nice for me as a self-taught developer, and, uh, discovering Views was so cool. Mm-hmm. But then we had to make the migration to 10, and with that, it was just a, it was a whole, um, it was a whole new world for us.

And so thankfully, I got to go to DrupalCon Atlanta. That was- Yeah ... that was a really good introduction to the broader, uh, Drupal world and, you know, s- the whole conference space. But, [00:04:00] um, you know, um, I think it was, it was really, it was really inspiring to learn. Um, and, and I think that, like, after you come back from conferences, you are, you still wanna kind of have that, that same learning and ex- exploratory sort of nature.

And so I'm a big podcast listener. Um, gosh, I, I've, I've listened to so many things, This American Life, uh, Radiolab- Mm-hmm ... uh, The Verge cast, all sorts of stuff. Um, but then I, I, I thought, I was like, "Wait a minute. Is there a, is there a Drupal podcast?" And so then I s- I searched, and then thankfully, you know, you guys came up and, and this was actually leading up into, um, Drupal Camp Asheville, um, 'cause that's what...

I, I attended that this year, and actually got to help co- cohost that or co-organize that.

Stephen: But,

Tim: um- When, when was that? [00:05:00] That was in June.

Stephen: Okay.

Tim: It was over the summer, yeah. So this has been kind of like a whirlwind, but you know, I discovered the show, I think it was about May, and I was like, "I gotta prepare," you know?

I, I, I'm gonna, I'm gonna be meeting all these people, like- Uh-huh ... um, I, I need a h- if I'm gonna be, you know, co- co-organizing, I, uh, what i- what type of... I'm gonna have, like, I'm gonna be rubbing shoulders a lot more. Right, right. I need to know these people. Right, right. And so it, it came out of anxiety at first actually, but then the more I was listening, it was so cool.

I learned about the Recording Initiative with Kevin. Yeah. Um, I got to, you know, learn about Avi. Um, you know- Mm-hmm ... it just was, it was super cool with the, the whole platform where you really start to get to know people, and you start to get to know what people are working on, discover that, kind of that overlap, and that was...

I, I've been sticking with it ever since. Um- There was a, uh [00:06:00] I, I listened in on, on, uh, on a team meeting that my, my, uh, my partner was, was, uh, like a call she was on, and, uh, their CEO had, um, said something about, uh, take note, make a note, send a note. It was basically like, you know, take notes whenever you're in, in meetings with people.

Um, but also, you know, take note of whenever you should be talking and whatnot. And just to like maybe take a step back and listen, but then after you, you have a good conversation with someone, send a note along. Mm-hmm. And that kinda stuck with me, and so that's where I started. I f- I found the, the, the Drupal Slack, and I s- Okay

started posting-

Stephen: Yeah ...

Tim: the, the, the comments on all of the episodes, trying to keep the conversation going. Yeah.

Stephen: That's actually pretty good advice. What was it? Take a note?

Tim: It was, uh, make, make note, take note, send a note.

Stephen: Send a note.

Tim: Yeah.

Stephen: That's good. That's great advice. Yeah.

Tim: So,

Stephen: [00:07:00] so you've been, um, at the college now working for three years you said.

So what, what brought you there? Did... I don't think I- Yeah ... was your degree in-

Tim: Oh ...

Stephen: any kind of programming? I took a look at your LinkedIn.

Tim: Sustainability science.

Stephen: Okay. All right. Okay. Your LinkedIn bio- Yeah ... says, though, that you're a designer.

Tim: Oh, yeah.

Stephen: Right?

Tim: Yeah.

Stephen: Okay.

Tim: Jeez, I- maybe I gotta update that. Yeah,

Stephen: okay.

All right.

Tim: But, I mean, that's very common. I, the world, put everything.

Stephen: Yeah.

Tim: Yeah. Right. Well, I... So, okay. So my degree is in sustainability science.

Stephen: Okay.

Tim: Um, I, I went to school in South Carolina.

Stephen: Yeah.

Tim: It was super... It was awesome. Yeah. I got to, uh, you know, I... Everything I feel like with me has to, like, mean something.

Yeah. And so that's where, you know, when I was a high schooler I was like, "Oh, my gosh. What am I gonna do with my life? It's gotta mean something." And- Right ... you know, at the time, like, sustainability was really big. Yeah. Um, there was a lot of, um, that was starting to come [00:08:00] up. And, uh, and I found a, a program at Furman University, and, um, and it was, it was great.

Uh, but it's also a, it was a liberal arts school, so got to take art classes, did photography, graphic design. Um, and, um, I went, I went through school, and then eventually just got, like, burnt out.

Stephen: Yeah.

Tim: Um, I didn't really wanna stay in academia, and, um, and then also the whole idea of, like, what, what would I actually do for a ma- or a, um, a master's program.

I, I just really, I didn't, I didn't know what I wanted to do.

Stephen: Yeah.

Tim: So after school, I, I worked at a, at a winery. Um, that was, that was really fun. Um, then I worked in retail for a bit and just kinda was still trying to find my way. And then, and then eventually I got a job with a nonprofit. Okay. And they were in Baltimore, and they were- Okay

lending tools to other community-based organizations. They were like a- [00:09:00] tool lending library. But, um, but I started working for them in March of 2020 as a volunteer coordinator. And so that was a- Okay ... that was, I, I got, I got, like, one week, not even one week- ... of, of in person, and then it was all

Stephen: working from home.

Then you were coordinating.

Tim: Oh, my God. I was like, "How am I gonna interact with people?" And I was like, "Oh, my gosh." And so it, it's this total fear mentality of, like, how do I provide- Uh-huh ... um, uh, this value to this organization? Um, so it was this total pivoting. I was just like, "What do I do? What do I do?" And I was like, "All right.

I could start doing some, like, social media stuff. Pull on this graphic design stuff I did in college, and, you know, maybe make some... I know, I know how to use Illustrator, you know. Yeah. Maybe I could do that." Um, and actually, like, had, had a lot of fun with that, and, um, the executive director at the time was like, "Great.

That's awesome- Yeah ... that you're staying busy." And he was, [00:10:00] he was awesome, that he wrote all of these grants to make sure that I could continue to have a job with them. Um, but then eventually it came around to the, um, annual report, and, um, that's whenever I discovered InDesign.

Stephen: Okay.

Tim: And, uh- And- ... and the, the whole visual hierarchy of, like, paragraph styles, getting everything in alignment.

So

Stephen: you're re- you're very resourceful.

Tim: Oh, yeah. Okay. Oh, yeah, definitely. Definitely, yeah. And but, but then it eventually became, um- I, well actually that was whenever I was like, "I think I want to be a graphic designer." Uh, and then I got a job with an AV company doing their proposals, got to do way more, um, InDesign stuff.

But then it was like how do you make a PDF responsive, right?

Stephen: Uh-huh.

Tim: And then that's where it just kind of got to the web eventually.

Stephen: Yeah, yeah.

Tim: And so it, um, it, it was cool where there was that overlap between, um, you know, the print materials but then also the web [00:11:00] materials. And, um, but then that, that's where I, I was struggling finding a job- Oh

as, as a web, uh, developer. Yeah. And, um, you know, it's like how do you break in? And, um, and also at the time I was up in Maryland, um, really missed my, my family back in North Carolina. So I ended up getting a job at a community college, and I was managing websites with them, and that was, it was, that was WordPress.

Stephen: Okay. Yeah.

Tim: And, um, and I was, I was the only, I was the web guy.

Stephen: Okay.

Tim: Um, so that was cool. That's where I learned HTML, CSS, CSS tricks. Yeah, yeah. You know? Kind of just like all of this like very simple sort of things. I was also using Divi- Yeah ... um, like pa- visual page building. Sure. I was like, "Oh, I can, can make rounded corners and buttons and drop shadows."

So at

Stephen: that, at that point were you like the content administrator or s- maybe in the Drupal world- Mm-hmm ... we'd call it a site builder- Yeah ... or more of a content person? Yeah.

Tim: Oh, yeah. I was, [00:12:00] um, well I wa- I was site building, yeah. Okay. And it was mainly just, um, these website request, support request of like, "Hey, can you update this webpage," whatever.

Got it. Yeah,

Stephen: yeah,

Tim: yeah. And, and it was pretty much like, "I could make it look good for you." Okay. So it was basically site building, yeah.

Stephen: Okay.

Tim: Um- But then I kinda maxed out. 'Cause then it was like, I, how do I teach myself programming?

Stephen: Right.

Tim: You know? I was like, the HTML stuff, CSS, that's all good and fine, but then it started to get into, I, I mean, this- Did that feel

Stephen: like the next natural progression for you at that time?

Tim: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Okay. Because, because we did have a theme. Yeah. We had a theme that was built by, uh, developers, and I started, I wanted to get into PHP for the- Yeah ... for the, the templates, right?

Stephen: Yeah.

Tim: Because I would build these really cool pages.

Stephen: Yeah.

Tim: And then I was like, "How can I duplicate this?" Right. And I was just like, it became this, I was making these little unicorns, [00:13:00] and then I would come back to a s- a page that I built, like, months ago, and I was like, "What was I doing then?"

Yeah. "I'd do it different now." Mm-hmm. And so I was like, there needs to be this replication there. And so that's where I was like, okay, I wanna, I wanna pull back the, the engine a bit. I wanna see how it works. I wanna tweak it. But then looking at PHP, you're like, "What the..."

Stephen: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Tim: It's,

Stephen: uh- So WordPress was your gateway to PHP.

Tim: Yeah.

Stephen: And where was the gateway to Drupal? Where's that leap happen

Tim: at? Yeah. Gosh, that wa- that was my, my fiance. She, she lived in, her family were in western North Carolina, and we were in eastern North Carolina. Oh. So we were driving across the- Yeah ... the whole state.

Stephen: Yeah.

Tim: Uh, multiple times a month, and that was, oof, that was hard.

Um, so then it wa- it, it didn't really, Drupal didn't come about until I found this job at, at App State, where I'm at now. Yeah. Found it on [00:14:00] higheredjobs.com. Yeah. If anybody is looking for a job in higher ed, that is a great place to, to find jobs. But, um, but I found this, this job that was, um, they may have mentioned Drupal, may- maybe not.

But I think what they really saw in me was that I've been working with other, um, with, in higher ed. Mm-hmm. Um, and I've been, you know, doing website support requests. Yeah. And, you know, I understand how that kind of functions. So that's where I was able to get in without as much hard Drupal knowledge. Sure.

But once I got in- That's where it was. They were, they were on Drupal. They had... We have WordPress, but there was one guy who was specifically working on that, so then, uh, the majority of the sites were on Drupal. So then that's where I started working at App, and, um, that's where Drupal came in. And but that's where I discovered Views.

Okay. And that was like, wow.

Stephen: That's the... That's where you [00:15:00] go, "Oh, now I

Tim: get

Stephen: it." Yeah. Right? Uh, yeah.

Tim: Exactly. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Because it was a, it was this, this, this visual. This- Yeah. I'm such a GUI guy. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Graphical interface, you know? I, I loved how all of the, the fields and the filtering, and how it was clear how you would, um, you would take all of these different fields that were in these different content types- Yeah

and you'd place them in, and then you could sort them out, and then you could... You know, it... With, with, uh... I was, I was doing some really fun stuff with directories, you know? Yeah. That's a lot of what we do. And so that was, that was really cool, where it's like, okay, maybe then we can also do taxonomies of, um, you know, uh, these different teams within a, uh, a department, you know?

And it was, uh... So that was really cool. I w- I was getting deep into that, and then we then, you know, end of life came around, and it was like, "We gotta get onto 10." So that's- You

Stephen: called it a migration, right?

Tim: Yeah.

Stephen: A migration. Was [00:16:00] it more of a rebuild in Drupal 10?

Tim: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Stephen: Did you-

Tim: Definitely ...

Stephen: did you migrate any of the content, or was it kinda like, "We're starting from scratch.

We'll move stuff over"?

Tim: Yeah, so it was basically moving stuff over manually. Yeah. I, I... It, it's... I would love for it to be a bit more automated, but at the same time- We're doing a lot of consolidation. Yeah. Right? So App State, like with some other, uh, higher ed organizations, you know, subdomains, very common.

Ev- you get a subdomain, you get a subdo- everybody's got a subdomain.

Stephen: Is that where

Tim: the- And they all

Stephen: go- ... 300 websites, like- Yes ... you, you list, like- Yes ... you maintain three, 300 websites. Right. So is it, like, every department, every- Yeah ... you know, school within- Yeah ... the college? Is it like that?

Tim: Yes. It is exactly like that.

So that's where, with this, this, um, this, this, this, uh, move to t- to 10, it was like, okay, let's, let's [00:17:00] identify where we can consolidate. So with a lot of the academic departments, you know, well, let's have one for the school, and let's do, build, like combine 25 different sites. Um, and that's where we have also been exploring content moderation, governance.

Yeah. You know? Um, I think that's been the great thing about sending everybody in the team going to these different conferences. Yeah. Learning about these different shared experiences that other people are also, um, other schools are dealing with as well. So it's been, it's been really cool. So but we worked with Lullabot, and- Uh-huh

they helped us to... They were like, "All right. You're gonna take a product approach. You're gonna have one distribution."

Stephen: Yeah. "

Tim: And then all of these sites are gonna use it." And, um, so there was an episode with, uh, with Jasmine, Jasmine Apps, uh, from the State of Georgia, the, with the GovHub. [00:18:00] Um, I, I got to, to hear her talk at, in Atlanta.

Uh-huh. And that's... I, I loved it. I loved it. She- the, the whole product approach, I, I- that was the exact same sort of thing that we're doing, um, microcontent. Yeah. And so it, it's, it's awesome to hear, um, hear her talk about that sort of stuff. Um- I, I don't wanna go too down in the, in the weeds, but, um- Yeah, right

but yeah, so th- that's where, um, you know, I, I do love the product approach. Um, I know, uh, I know the distributions I've heard are, like, are dead, but- But, but, uh, what I like about it, so coming from my customer service experience and whatnot, it's the user, user interface, the user experience, really trying to make it, the, the platform, as user-friendly as possible to people who are not tech savvy.

Um, I do the trainings, documentation writing, but with that, I'm, I'm, I'm starting to see [00:19:00] how some people don't even know how to resize windows, you know? Right, yeah. But they're tasked with managing the website.

Stephen: Yeah.

Tim: Um, you know? And so

Stephen: how do we- H- how is your, how is your IT or your web department structured?

Do you have people that focus on content and then-

Tim: Mm-hmm ...

Stephen: people that focus on development? And how- Mm-hmm ... how big is the team?

Tim: Yeah. Yeah, so we're actually, it's interesting, we are, I think we're classified as IT workers, but we're actually in the university communications department- Sure ... which is kinda cool.

Makes

Stephen: sense.

Tim: Yeah. But I think that helps a lot with, um- Yeah ... communication with the marketing- Yeah ... folks. Um, but let's see. We do have some people who specialize more in content. Um, there are, uh... Let's see. We have about, I think we're about, like, 10, 10 people or so. Mm-hmm. So we've got, um, some in content, some, um, there's, there's a guy that focuses on the WordPress, then we got a Drupal administrator, um, which is really great.

I've been working with him. And then, [00:20:00] um, yeah. So we've got a few people who are working specifically on migrating over the content- Yeah ... manually, going over. And then me and then, um, about, uh, three other folks are working on the actual feature development.

Stephen: Yeah.

Tim: Um, trying to, you know, fine-tune the content, uh, moderation and, uh, work out little bugs and kinks.

But that's been one of the thing that I, I've loved about, um, getting, getting the, uh, the platform from Lullabot is that we have a platform that we can work on and we can develop. Um, Seven, it was, it was built by someone. Yeah. Uh, and it was pretty much this is just how it is. Yeah. You know? So now- Getting to hear feedback from our users, and actually start to address, okay, um, we need to include fax numbers [00:21:00] and figure out- Yeah

how to display that in the footer and stuff. So I, I love this whole iterative sort of design process.

Stephen: Now is, is Lullabot still involved, or do you guys... Now that they've worked with you guys are sort of- Yeah ... on your own at this point?

Tim: Yeah, so, um, we're not working together anymore. Um, I think it really comes down to budgetary constraints, you know?

Sure.

Stephen: Yeah.

Tim: Uh, I think that's been the thing about higher ed. Um, you know, enrollment dips and then- Yeah ... um, state government budgets and all sorts of stuff. It's, it's really, um... We've had to be, be scrappy. And, um, so I... But I, what I, what I, what I've really appreciated is the investment that App has taken to start, you know, re- They really value professional development.

And so that's where I'm so thankful that I got to go to, uh, uh, DrupalCon Atlanta.

Stephen: Um-

Tim: Oh, you did?

Stephen: Great.

Tim: Yeah, yeah, [00:22:00] that was awesome. And I, I didn't even realize how expensive that was until- Yeah ... you know, um, i- it, it, it... But, but the other thing that was really cool was that I got to go to the, the Drupal Camp Asheville.

Yeah, yeah. You know? And so I think that, um, you know, things are getting more expensive, but there's, there's... If you can be scrappy with it- Yeah ... there still is that broader Drupal community out there. And I think that you can get stuck in these ruts with, uh, with developing. And I think it's really important to take some time away from the, the grind, and talk with other people, and, you know, um, attend some sessions, and, um, bring that, bring that knowledge back to the team.

I'm really excited for how we can implement AI, uh, once we get to 11. Mm. I did a really, really good workshop with [00:23:00] Mike Anello. And, um, just simply how could you generate alt text from an i- image? Yeah. Um, I think that some of these, some of these things of, um- With, with the alt text and with writing SEO, like meta descriptions.

I think those, there, there are these things that are very important that are required, but at the same time there's that friction there. Yeah. So it's like how can we use AI just to kinda just refer- just remove some of that friction, you know, not fully replace anyone. But I think I'm just hearing it from everyone that they're just overworked.

Um, you know, they're- we're not doing as much of the, um, the, the refilling of positions, so sometimes teams will get even- Oh, yeah ... thinner and thinner. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, it's like how can we as developers help, um, make people's lives easier? That's, that's really [00:24:00] been where I find a lot of, um, inspiration and excitement.

Stephen: Now the training or the workshop you just mentioned- You said with Mike Canelo. I think that for anyone listening- Yeah ... this is now mid-October. I think Mike is giving that at New England Drupal Camp in November. Responsible Drupal AI basics?

Tim: Yeah, yeah.

Stephen: Okay, so- And I think

Tim: he-

Stephen: Anyone listening, it's that, that it's a full day workshop at New England Drupal Camp.

So if you look up nedcamp.org, you'll see it there if you're interested.

Tim: Yeah. I, I highly recommend the workshop with Mike. Yeah. Um, and it's ... It was really great where we used, uh, Amazee, amazee.io. Mm-hmm. We were able to get up, get set up with these trial accounts- Yeah ... to where we could actually use models, um, without really even providing a credit card.

Oh, right. Which I thought was... That was so nice. That was so [00:25:00] nice. 'Cause that's, that's where I've, I've, I've been learning about all this AI stuff. But at the end of the day, I'm, I'm not... I don't know. I'm not gonna put my credit card down. But it was really cool how, and sorry, my dogs are, they're fighting over in the, the living room.

Can't even hear it. We're

Stephen: good.

Tim: Okay, that's perfect. Um, but it was really cool how we could get actually up and running with this demo site that then I could bring back to my team and show like, "Look-

Stephen: Yeah ...

Tim: I can add a button to generate some alt text on demand." Yeah. You know? So

Stephen: you think you'll be doing that as soon as you get up to 11?

Tim: Yeah. Oh, definitely. Definitely. Well, your t-

Stephen: your time is running out on 11.

Tim: Yeah.

Stephen: Right? I think- Yeah ... 10 is end of life in December.

Tim: Yeah, yeah. Well, thankfully-

Stephen: Yeah ...

Tim: the Drupal admin, um-

Stephen: Yeah ...

Tim: that we got, he's been working on this, on the upgrades. Sure. Yeah. And, um, you know, so I [00:26:00] think that this has been a great, great process where, you know, it was starting to discover, okay, what, what, what are the blockers, you know, patch files and, you know, s- starting to go back through everything.

Um, it's a good, good process that I think will make the updating to, um, uh, you know, 11 a lot easier, and then e- even up to 12. I mean, we'll, we'll see what happens with the, uh, a lot of the deprecations and stuff like that. But, um, but it's exciting. I mean, and I think it's, it's, it's great to be part of a team that's actively working-

Stephen: Yeah

Tim: on that sort of stuff rather than getting so far behind that then it's like, "Oh, end of life's here. We gotta... Oh no."

Stephen: Right. Yeah.

Tim: Yeah.

Stephen: So what are your Drupal aspirations at this point?

Tim: Oh, gosh. Um, I- okay, my aspirations are to give a talk.

Stephen: Okay.

Tim: That, that's what it is. Um, 'cause at, at, uh, [00:27:00] at Asheville, uh, gosh, that was...

It was, it was such... It was so great. Um, and I- what was really great about Asheville is the smaller, smaller group of, uh, you know, d- you know, DrupalCon's so overwhelming. Yeah, yeah. It feels like it's just schools of fishes and you're s- Yeah. Ocean. Yeah. You know? But, um, you know, it was so much more ap- approachable at Asheville.

One of the things they did though was lightning talks. Sure. Um, so it was 15- or no, no, it wasn't even 15. It was five-minute talks. Yeah. And I was like, "Okay, um, you could talk about anything." And I was like, "All right, I think I got this. I think I could like-" What'd you do? "... get up there." What'd you talk about?

Oh, gosh. Um, well, I... Have you ever... Do you use Raycast at all? Um, it's- Say it again. Raycast.

Stephen: I think I-

Tim: So-

Stephen: What is it?

Tim: So are you, are you a Mac user?

Stephen: Yes.

Tim: Yeah, okay. So Spotlight- In Windows ... Search.

Stephen: Okay.

Tim: Yeah, so Spot- Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Whenever, like, you, you do your, your, uh, Command + Space and- Yeah ... you get your li- your [00:28:00] meta search.

Sure. Well, there's this, this application, it's called Raycast. Yeah. And it's this whole ecosystem of open source, um, extensions where you can... 'Cause I was a, I was a Chrome extension fiend. Okay. So I would have Chrome extensions to alphabetize lists- Oh ... and all sorts of stuff like that. Well, it's kinda taken that same sort of extension approach to basically your Spotlight search.

And so I was like, "All right, I can save so much time with this, where I can like, you know, do this, um, my, have my whole clipboard history right there. Um, it saves me so much time. I can do all of this, uh, transforming of the cases and whatnot." And I was like, "Okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna focus on, like, productivity, right?

Just some tools that I use that help my productivity." Yeah. No, it's not, it wasn't even gonna be Drupal related. Yeah, sure. Um, so that, yeah. And, um, but I got up there- And it, I, I was, like, [00:29:00] flailing around. I don't know. I talk with my hands. I was bumping the microphone. It w- it- Yeah ... and I, like, my phone went flying at one point.

Yeah, yeah. And I was just like, "Oh, my gosh." And so I, I was mortified. It was, I felt so embarrassed. Uh-huh. I was, I was, oh, my gosh. Um, and, um, but everyone was really nice. Like, nobody, nobody, like, laughed at me. I mean, I think they were laughing with me, uh, when I was making jokes, but, but it was the, it was that internal, like that self-talk.

Stephen: Sure.

Tim: You know? Yeah. I was, I was beating myself up. Yeah. But we had a social event after, and I was, I was driving towards, to that, and I was in the car by myself, and I was just like, "Gosh," like, "you messed up." Like, "You d- you shouldn't have done that," or whatever. And, and I was like, we got, we, this is some really bad negative self-talk that's going on right now.

Yeah. We need to reframe this because you still have a whole night ahead of you. Yeah. And so then I was like, all right, well, gosh, okay, Drupal.org profiles. You know, [00:30:00] everyone's like, "Oh, I was, I spoke at X event or whatever." And I was like, "Well, I could say I spoke at Drupal Camp Asheville." Yeah. "I'm a speaker now."

And then I, I don't know, just that thought just, like, made me laugh.

Stephen: Yeah.

Tim: And that just kinda, like, just broke that, that, that, that funk I was in. And, um, and so then it was just... And then, and then I reframed it to like, wait, you just actually accomplished something. Yeah. Like, you did talk. Like, that's cool.

Yeah,

Stephen: yeah.

Tim: Um, and then it was like, okay,

Stephen: what, what's next? That's the hardest part, that first- Yeah ... step of just getting up there.

Tim: Mm-hmm.

Stephen: That's the hardest

Tim: part. Oh, my gosh.

Stephen: Yeah.

Tim: Right. Right. Well, and I also see that with, uh, you know, the Dries note, which was really great, you know, talking about how we need to speak louder, uh, we need to get outside of our bubbles, we need to talk about Drupal, we need to- Yeah

post about Drupal. We need to do all this stuff. But, like, for me, up until this year- Posting on social media, ooh- Yeah ... like I- Okay ... not, that, like that is [00:31:00] way out of my comfort zone. Yeah. Um, and so, um, it's, uh, it's been good to, to take these, these little steps. Get out of your comfort zone. And, um, you know, for me, my comfort zone was LinkedIn, 'cause I was like-

Stephen: Oh, okay

Tim: I don't have, like, my whole- Yeah ... family on there or whatever. I don't know. Yeah. And, uh,

Stephen: first- Embarrass yourself in front of nobody you know.

Tim: Right. Exactly. For some reason, LinkedIn just felt like- Yeah ... a safe space for me. Oh, okay. I don't know why. Yeah. But, um, but that's actually where that combined with, um, with like the, the Drupal Slack, um- Yeah

started to kind of post on there as well. Yeah. And so that's, it's been, it's been good. It's been really good because then, you know, people will send you connections after. Yeah. And you can start to, you know, continue the conversation. Um,

Stephen: you know, it's- Well, I remember, I remember when you first started sending messages in the Talking Drupal Slack channel Then at some point, [00:32:00] John sends like a, in our back channel, John's like, "Does anybody know who this guy is?"

Tim: Right.

Stephen: And I think Ma- I think Martin chimed in and says, "I think I met him at the..." Maybe it was Asheville. Right.

Tim: Yeah.

Stephen: He said, "He's a really nice guy." Uh-huh, yeah. It was funny.

Tim: Yeah, yeah. That, well it was funny too with the, the Tea Sharp, um, like T-E-A-sharp. Yeah. I was like, I'm not, I'm not really a big user, username guy.

Yeah. Um, you know, Martin's got the best one with Man Clue. Yeah. Right,

Stephen: right.

Tim: And it's like... It, uh, but um, but yeah. And like, I mean, my, my Xbox gamer tag was Tiny Timme, and I'm like, "Am, am I gonna use that for my life?" You know? And so I was like, "Gosh, what do I do?" Um, but then also with, um, with like, uh, Tea Sharp- Yeah

uh, like, like actual Tim, Tim Sharp, like- Yeah ... I found that like my name is kinda common, where it's [00:33:00] hard to find usernames. Yeah. And I'd like it to be consistent and whatnot.

Stephen: Yeah.

Tim: And I was like, "Well, I drink a bunch of tea, so maybe- There you go ... something like that." Yeah. You

Stephen: didn't order tea when you got here, though.

You went for wine. Did you, no- Uh ... you switched your drink,

Tim: didn't you? Oh, I went to the Hazy, Hazy IPA. That's right, the

Stephen: Hazy

Tim: IPA.

Stephen: Yeah.

So how is you, you've just, you're about to complete four episodes of Talking Drupal. I think the, the, your last one is coming up.

Tim: Mm-hmm.

Stephen: How's that b- experience been for you? Someone who- Oh, my gosh ... was afraid to get up and talk at Asheville. Um- Yeah ... and you're now are on, I guess it's a little easier on a Zoom, basically a Zoom call than it is to- Yeah

stand in front of a room full of people. But how's that experience been for you?

Tim: Oh, it's been great. Um, I think the, uh, so the, what, what actually started all of this was I did post on, on LinkedIn, and I was like, "I am this close to starting a podcast about Drupal." And I was talking about how, you know, [00:34:00] I love podcasts, and I would, I would love to, you know, start one, but then also at the same time, like, would it be better to, to jump on and contri- i- almost like the same thing about, like, open source.

Yeah. Like, sometimes you're like, I, I could just go ahead and make my own thing.

Stephen: Yeah.

Tim: Or I could contribute to something that's existing, ongoing. And John, John Picozzi, he, he reached out and he invited me, and that was, I think, really, it was really awesome to be able to learn from you guys. Um, I have, I've enjoyed it so much, um, just as a student, um, just to see how you guys do the show notes, um, you know, the scheduling with the, with the, um, um, with the guest, and how you kind of bounce around between different questions.

I think you guys do a great job at making it really approachable for new people, that it's, there's, you [00:35:00] know, um, there's already, already questions that, um, kinda contribute to in, in the, uh, the notes. Um, and so it takes, takes a lot of pressure off. If it was fully unstructured- Mm ... I think there would be a lot more of hiding in the corner.

And so I think that it's been great where you guys kinda toss the, toss the ball around and, um, include the, uh, the guest host as well. And so it's, it's been good, and it's also been interesting because some of the, the, I mean, the topics were already kinda laid out ahead of time, and it kind of- It, it gives, gives you the opportunity to learn about things that you would not have-

Stephen: Yeah

Tim: you know, you break out of your bubble. You were talking to, uh, Lisa Berron with the PHP Foundation. Yeah. That was super cool. Um, you know, and it was just, it was, it was really, really fun. Um, so I think, um, I definitely would do it [00:36:00] again, for sure.

Stephen: Well, I, I believe you'd probably be invited again as well. We were just talking today, John Nick and I, doing some planning for the future and stuff, and excuse me, I gotta-

Gonna clear my throat. Fighting a cold, so I can edit that out later. Um, and you know, one of the things I brought up 'cause we've had some shows recently like the one you just mentioned with, what's her name? Elizabeth from-

Tim: Yeah, Elizabeth Barrett.

Stephen: Elizabeth. Um, we haven't done a lot of shows like that with people kinda outside the Drupal world.

Yeah. And we've been introducing some of those shows in, and they've turned out to be some of my favorite. Like, the people- Yes ... I don't know, the topics- Right ... I'm not familiar with- Right ... are the most interesting to me. So-

Tim: Right ...

Stephen: if they're interesting to me, they must be interesting to everyone else in the community.

So we're gonna continue- Right ... down that path of trying to expand, [00:37:00] um, our reach in terms of guests, so.

Tim: I love that.

Stephen: Yeah, it's good feedback- Yeah ... to hear that you enjoyed that.

Tim: Yeah. Yeah, and I think that's been kind of the case for, um, for almost every single one of the episodes, where it's, uh, you know, even like with test-driven development.

Yeah. Um, you know, talking of, uh, like there were so many different ones. There was the recording initiative. There were all of these ones where like from the onset, if I'm just looking at the title, I'm like, "Mm, I don't know." And then, but then it's really been great where the conversations, what you learn from it, you're just like, "Whoa, this is awesome."

I mean, even with like the UN open source week when, um, it was last week. Yeah. Or maybe... Yeah, um, this, that was-

Stephen: This came out, this came out, uh, yeah, this, this week, this past week.

Tim: Yeah.

Stephen: Last few days.

Tim: Yeah. I wasn't sure with how, with the release of this if,

Stephen: uh- Oh, yeah. I don't know when this is coming out, but

Tim: Yeah.

Uh, but, um, but it, it's, it's [00:38:00] cool. Yeah. Um, Matt, um, from, um, from Laravel. Uh, what was it? Matt, I can't rem- S- s- uh, s- s- hmm, it starts with an S. Oh, gosh. Yeah. But, um, but no, I, I, I have really appreciated just the different perspectives. Um, yeah, so I think that that would be really great to, as a listener, to continue, you know, learning about all of these, um- Matt Stauffer?

Is it? Stauffer. There we go. Yes. That, that was, that was- That was a good show ... it was like lightning That was a good episode. Yeah. Lightning. Yeah.

Stephen: It was like,

Tim: whoa, I feel so inspired. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Um, but yeah, I... But for, from my perspective though of I'm really interested in the next generation of Drupal users, you know?

Um, like I, I struggled along with Drupal because this was my job, [00:39:00] you know? Yeah. I get paid to, to do it. Yeah. But, um, I'm really excited... W- oop. I'm really excited for- Uh, about how we can improve documentation, module discovery, all sorts of stuff like that. And there was the, the Drupal Association board election.

Um, and then there was, there was Jana, uh, Malakova. Um, and she- one of the things that was really inspiring about what she wrote, um, with, with her bio was that she was advocating for, um, small site builders, small business owners- Yeah ... and then documentation foundations. And I thought that was, that stood out because that's what, I mean, that's what we need for the discoverability.

Yeah. Right? As a new person that comes to Drupal- What's that documentation like? Um, and then also the whole module ecosystem. I think the module [00:40:00] ecosystem is flipping awesome compared to, yeah, coming from Drupal, whereas so much of it was freemium. Yeah. Where it's like, okay, you could use it. Yeah. But then you start, you fall in love with something, and then you're like, "Oh- Yeah

these different features are behind a paywall," which I get it. Yeah. But then it's like, it still is kind of hard to y- yeah, so I, I think that, like, the... I think people will fall in love with Drupal, but then there, there's gonna... With CMS, for sure, they're gonna fall in love with that, but they're, they're gonna wanna build onto it.

They're gonna wanna put those Lego blocks on there. And so-

Stephen: You, you did mention in a recent episode that you would like better discoverability-

Tim: Yes. Yes ...

Stephen: of modules. Yes. And I see where you're coming from there. I think-

Tim: Yeah ...

Stephen: a lot of us, and a lot of us in the community who've been here a long time, take a lot of this stuff for granted, and we just assume- Yeah

people know where the modules are, and what they are- Yeah ... and how to find them, and [00:41:00] it's, it's- Yeah ... not true. I, I've done this exercise for about a year now of taking a fresh install of Drupal CMS and trying to pretend I don't know stuff and see what I can do. Right.

Tim: Yeah.

Stephen: And it was frustrating a year ago.

I really couldn't do much. Mm-hmm. And it's much, much better now.

Tim: Right.

Stephen: But there's still those, there's still some blockers, I think. Um- Definitely ... where someone really not knowing anything is gonna struggle, and discoverability, I mean, isn't even-

Tim: Mm-hmm ...

Stephen: I guess it's part of it, but it's not really built in very well.

Tim: Yeah. Yeah. I, um, I have been playing around with Linux as well. Mm-hmm. Um, 2026, year of Linux. I've, I... With, uh, I, I'm a hoarder. I'm a, I'm a tech hoarder. So I've got all these old ThinkPads and stuff like that. And, um, and, and I... So yeah. So I, I've, I've been diving into the, the Linux world, and I think there's a lot of similarities with Drupal.

[00:42:00] Um, where, you know, open source, free to use, but there's a lot of complexity, complexity there. Um, but also, you know, Linux, there's all, all these different, um, programs. And I, I love the, the Flathub Store. Yeah. I don't know if you've ever used it, but it's just kind of like- Sure ... you know... Yeah, yeah. It's got that app store sort of, you know, carousels, and there's groupings.

There's, like, editor recommendations. I think the thing is, is there's a lot of this tacit knowledge that developers have. Um, I think that, you know, some of that is, uh, making its way into CMS of which, which modules are chosen and whatnot. But I'm thinking about other people who are like me, who might come into an existing distribution Want to start to, start to tinker with it- Yeah

and figure out, okay, what should I use? What, what do we have that... What do I have now [00:43:00] that is not really working, and what could work better? Um, so, you know, I think, um, I think the, uh, yeah, the... I would, I would love to, to help out a bit more with the, the Drupal Association, with, with the, um, Drupal.org. Um, I've s- I've done a little bit of, um, documentation writing with Mike Gifford with, uh, accessibility documentation.

Uh-huh.

Stephen: Yep.

Tim: And that's been really, that's been really fun. Um, and so, um, yeah, it's, uh, it, it's, it's... Open source is really interesting, and I think that the, the community around Drupal is so, um, it's so well-established. Which I think is- Yeah ... it's, it's cool compared to some of these other projects where it's like, okay, it's open source, but five coded, like, where is this?

One dude? Is this, you know, 20 dude? Is this, like, 200? Yeah. You know? [00:44:00] Um, that was the cool thing about talking, um, uh, talking with the, uh, the open s- doing the open source conversation with, with Henry, uh, Poole and Tim, uh, Lennon, and hearing about how the trust that- Other, with the UN and with, like, these other countries and how the, the governance structure around Drupal is actually, um, one of the reasons why it would be chosen by different organizations- Mm-hmm

or countries and agencies. Um, so it, it's really cool, um, that we have this history and this, this structure in place of how to even work with so many different people. You know, it can be, you know, frustrating at times where it's like, you know, you- you're a new person- Yeah ... come in and you're like, "Let's just do something fully new."

Yeah. But at the same time, I think there's a burnout risk with that, you [00:45:00] know? Um, that's the thing that I'm learning about. Uh, I mean, I'm in my 30s now, and I, I don't know. It's just... It feels, feels a bit more like, okay, time, it's a valuable commodity, you know? Do, do you feel

Stephen: old?

Tim: I do feel old. I bought a house.

I, yeah, I bought a house. So that, that's- Mm. I got, I got my dogs. They're like my little children.

Stephen: My daughter just- Um- ... turned 31, and her husband turned 31, uh, recently, and they were talking about how old they feel.

Tim: Yeah. I'm 31 too. Yeah. Oh,

Stephen: that's funny.

Tim: It's... Yeah. I, well, and I th- I think it's, it's also this- It's

Stephen: all relative.

Tim: It is. It's so relative. Yeah. Yeah. And, um, but yeah, it's, um, it definitely, you know, it makes me, makes me consider, you know, how I spend my time, uh- Yeah ... you know, with my partner. You know, that's, that's definitely valuable. And, um, you know, I don't want to go- [00:46:00] Like, have no life outside of-

Stephen: Right ...

Tim: uh- Yeah, yeah

you know? And I think that's, uh, but that's important. And, um, there was one conversation that was with Brian, uh, Munzenmaier, Munzenmaier. Uh, he was like, Node.js. Yeah. Um, and, um, on Talking Drupal, and he was talking about burnout, and I thought that was so, so valuable to hear the perspective of another open source maintainer.

I'm not even a maintainer. But, uh, uh- Yeah ... thinking about if I did wanna get, dive deeper in- Yeah ... you know, those i- those, like, grand ideas that, like, AI could give you of like, "Oh, I could just fully just-" Yeah ... "go, go off on my own." But then it's like, how would you maintain that, you know? And would you end up just burning yourself out?

And so, um, yeah, I think it's been, it's been so valuable to hear all of these different perspectives, and that's what I really love about the Talking Drupal podcast, and [00:47:00] I'm so grateful that you guys have been able to maintain it for over 500 episodes.

Stephen: That's insane. Well, you, you are a great commercial for Talking Drupal.

I really appreciate you. I really appreciate it. I mean, yeah, it's been- Oh, yeah ... almost 14 years of pretty much weekly episodes. It's a long time. Um- Yeah ... but it is, uh- It is a effort, but, uh, everyone loves doing it, so we keep going. Hey, as we wrap up here, at the begi- when we first connected, and I'm glad you came in to just...

I wanted to meet you and, and talk- Yeah ... with you a little bit. Um-

Tim: Thanks, this was

Stephen: fun. A- and thank you for, like, uh, reaching out and getting, getting active in the community. I mean, that's-

Tim: Mm-hmm ...

Stephen: that's how this community stays alive, of people taking the step forward and, and, uh- Definitely ... just jumping in, which you did.

Uh, you mentioned at the beginning of the show you wish there were more Talking Drupal Cafe episodes.

Tim: Yes.

Stephen: Why is that? Explain to the people listening why [00:48:00] there should be more episodes of these. And, and just- Mm ... for anyone who doesn't know, the reason we c- we created TD Cafe was we have a good size platform for the community.

We wanted to give the community a space that they could come and share their ideas with each other, and it wasn't necessarily controlled per se by the Talking Drupal Drupal hosts. But we trying to create this platform for people to get together and share ideas. And we've, I think this is episode 21, so we've had a number of episodes.

Um- Mm-hmm ... but it is a place for people to come, and, and we'll provide the recording, we'll provide the space, we'll provide the users. You just need to provide the conversation.

Tim: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I, I love the TD Cafe episodes because of their variety, right? And, you know, uh, sometimes, you know, Nick might be on there or some, you know, or sometimes it will just be, you know, totally, [00:49:00] um, two, two people who are not hosts.

I think- Yeah ... the, the, the, the one-on-one conversations are really great because I think there, there is this energy there, and I, I, I've, I've felt so inspired by, um, a bunch of the, um, a bunch of the episodes. Um, but I think it, it, you know, it's great that at Talking Drupal we have so many hosts, and that, that...

But I will say it, it, this is just me also personally. I, I'm learning how to engage more within group d- dynamics. Mm-hmm. It's, you know, there's a lot more of y- you got so many people- Yeah ... and you don't wanna talk over each other. Right. And so I think that there's, there's these weird tangents that you can go on, um, and be a little bit less scripted with- Yeah

the TD Cafe episodes that I really love. And, um, as just a, a podcast listener, it's, um, I've, I've really, really [00:50:00] en- enjoyed that.

Stephen: Yeah, me too. I mean, the sh- the, the, the... I listen to a lot of podcasts, and the ones I like-

Tim: Mm-hmm ...

Stephen: are conversations. Right. They're usually the ones that I gravitate towards, so.

Right. So for anyone listening, the platform is here. Just reach out to me on Talking Drupal Slack and say you wanna come on, and you'll see how easy it is for- to schedule a time, and we just hit record. Um- Yeah ... so thanks for jumping on, Tim.

Tim: Yeah. Come on in. The water- ...

Stephen: is

Tim: fine. I was a little nervous about this, to be honest- Okay

because it was a little less scripted, you know? But at, at the same time,

Stephen: like- Less scripted. I think it was no scripted.

Tim: No, yeah, exactly. Um, but it was fun. Yeah, good. This was super fun. It just, you know, the getting out of the comfort zone. I mean, like, come on, guys. It's... We can talk about anything, you know?

Stephen: If T# can do it, you can do it.

Tim: Exactly.

Stephen: All right. It was great to meet you, Tim, [00:51:00] uh, face to face. And, um- Yes ... although we've chatted on Slack, I, I'm glad we get the chance to talk.

Tim: Great. Yes. Thank you, Steven.

Stephen: All right.

Tim: This was, this was so fun.

Stephen: All right. I'll see you soon.